r/canadaguns • u/AutoModerator • Jun 13 '22
Weekly Politics Thread
Please post all your Politics or Ban-related ideas, initiatives, comments, suggestions, news articles, and recommendations in this thread. Unless new information is published in the media, recurring articles related to the gov'ts ***possible*** legislation are to be posted here. These threads will be weekly, until it's necessary for another per-week.
Previous politics threads can be found here. Previous threads can be found here.
We understand that politics is a touchy subject, and at times things can get heated. A reminder of the subreddit rules, when commenting, where subreddit users are expected to abide.
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u/NightFuryToni Jun 14 '22
We have hope... Senate just struck down Marco M's other idiotic suggestion (on frisking electronic devices at the border): https://twitter.com/mgeist/status/1536539458467676160
Maybe they will gut C-21 as well when it hits there.
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 14 '22
I highly doubt they gut C-21, but I do expect them to take their time. IMO the best we can hope for is the allowance of transfers between current owners and the removal of an airsoft ban.
I have been very confused on the exact process of the regulations regarding the handgun freeze. Specifically, what is the role of the Senate? What can they actually do, because right now that is our most pressing concern.
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u/Fancybear1993 ns Jun 15 '22
I want air soft banned alongside us. The more people upset the better.
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Jun 15 '22
Based
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u/Fancybear1993 ns Jun 15 '22
Let’s crash this plane with no survivors. Maybe next election they can dust us off and put us back together like robocop
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Jun 15 '22
They need to fix the red flag laws, tons of guys will get their license revoked for something that happened maybe 20 years ago and maybe not their fault.
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u/19830602 Jun 15 '22
I call it "shootin hopium" https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/don-martin-the-fall-of-justin-trudeau-has-begun-1.5946788
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 14 '22
I knew this would come up in Parliament
#WATCH: @RaquelDancho drops the @JustinPJTrudeau quote during the 2nd reading of Bill C-21
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u/SecureNarwhal Jun 14 '22
lol I knew what that quote was going to be before clicking the link
anyways did he admit to illegally possessing a restricted/prohibited device?
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 14 '22
anyways did he admit to illegally possessing a restricted/prohibited device?
No. With regards to "playing with the RCMP handguns" he specifically said they were "responsible around me". He never took possession of them, he just handeld them around the officers. Presumably the officers unloaded them, but who knows.
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u/davidc538 onterrible Jun 13 '22
If you voted liberal, you asked for this.
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Jun 13 '22
Someone's gonna tell you that you're wrong and that the Liberals have our best interests in mind lel
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Jun 14 '22
Unfortunately, I think it's just the fact that a lot of people don't know how far C21 goes or how much damage it's going to do. I don't mean this as an insult to anyone, but people tend to live in a sort of bubble. For example, they own lever action and bolt action guns and maybe a modern replica of a Colt Single Action Army. Maybe they even own BB guns or make their own 3D prop replicas. They hear about C21, and they think "it's only about assault rifles and modern handguns. I don't like those things so I'm fine with it". They don’t realize C21 even affects their lever action and bolt action rifles or that the Colt SAA they own would be covered under the handgun freeze and yes, the Liberals eventually want to ban that Colt SAA too. People don’t realize their BB guns are being banned or that the movie props they print are being banned too. If they teach their child how to use a 3D printer by printing out some harmless prop replica, they’ve just created a prohibited device and they’re now breaking the law. It's worse with people who don't own guns at all, they don't realize they're giving up their rights let alone realize how far C21 goes. They think they're doing something good and that everyone will be better off without guns. They can’t see any further than that. They don’t realize they’re giving up their own rights and giving up their children’s rights to lawful activities that exist even outside of owning or using real guns and they don't realize C21 will have absolutely no effect on illegal guns including guns smuggled into the country. They hear "ban and freeze" and they think this will end gun crime forever. We all know that's not true but it's really hard to make a lot of people see that.
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Jun 14 '22
No, people are aware. The media has made sure of that fact but most liberal voters don't care they're ruining other people's lives
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u/CalibreMag Jun 14 '22
I would say 5% of Canadian gun owners are aware of what C-21 is capable of doing to their firearms. Maybe 30-40% know that it exists period, and substantially less understand what it will do to their lever gun/duck gun mag tube.
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u/YourLoveLife Jun 15 '22
Some of us aren’t single issue voters.
I love my guns but I care more about things like expanding healthcare and cracking down on speculative real estate, so I vote NDP.
I just wish the NDP would stop treating firearms as a wedge issue.
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u/SurtseyHuginn Jun 13 '22
Just called my LGS to have an update related to my transfer. They told me the CFO got more than 100k transfer requests which is the equivalent of 2 years worth of firearm sales..
We will have to be patient..
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u/RedditSgtMajor Jun 13 '22
I’ve ordered three handguns since the announcement, including one today.
I expect at least six months before I start seeing them (Ontario).
If I’m lucky, I’ll receive the one I ordered today as a Christmas present to myself.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 17 '22
Wouldn't this be great!
UCP leadership contender Danielle Smith wants Alberta to ignore federal laws it doesn't like:
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Jun 17 '22
Kinda hoping the AB CFO just starts making ATCs shall issue as a form of protest
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u/floydsmoot Jun 17 '22
About the only way I can see any gun rights surviving in this country is if AB and SK tell Dear Leader to FO and they make their own gun laws
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Jun 17 '22
Yeah I agree, but WEXIT isn't realistic, Alberta could only survive if it became a US state. Plus it's not as popular as you think here most people are against it. Probably about 30% of the people I know actually want it and are not just memeing
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u/floydsmoot Jun 17 '22
but they can go the way of Quebec--they do what they want anyway
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u/discostu55 Jun 18 '22
Meh. She’s a traitor. Abandoned her people and party a few years back. I hope her political career dies. She is well hated in AB
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u/goomba008 Jun 16 '22 edited Jun 16 '22
Here's a couple advices for those trying to transfer handguns while we still can:
- They won't allow you to use the business line anymore, so no use trying. It worked for me 2 weeks ago, but now they just transferred my call to the regular line (1-800-731-4000) once they realized I wasn't a business.
- If you are buying the gun, you can still start the transfer! However, between private parties they will still want to talk to both persons before approving the transfer. To start the transfer as the buyer, make sure you have these infos (at least that's what they asked me):
- Firearm model and caliber
- Firearm serial number
- Firearm registration number
- Full name and PAL # of the seller.
- Use an auto-dialer application on your smartphone. This works great if you're at your desk/computer/couch and put your phone on speaker until the call goes through. I have an android phone and I used this one, works great: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.lithiums.autodialer . If you have an iPhone, I'm sure there's an equivalent. With this app, you can also set as an extension number the tones to dial to navigate the menu automatically. For instance:
- Phone number: 18007314000
- Extension:1,,,,,,,4,2
The commas are pauses; I put a bunch of pauses between 1 and 4 because there's a mandatory message that plays before you can dial the next number in the menu. This is how I was about the get someone on the line.
- Don't give up! It may seem like there's nobody working at the CFO because your call got dropped 50 times, but it's still happening. I was able to speak to someone today (2022/06/16)
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u/King-Moses666 Jun 14 '22
Not really much to discuss but the other week I was shocked to find out more people drown every year in Canada than die in firearms incidents. Just thought it was a neat little fact.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 14 '22 edited Jun 14 '22
more people drown every year
and more people are killed by moose than PAL holders commit murders according to Gary Mauser
Edit: added commit murders
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u/King-Moses666 Jun 14 '22
Mooses are no laughing matter
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Jun 14 '22
Ban bodies of water
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Jun 14 '22
[deleted]
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u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Jun 14 '22
Flying through the US?
You are limited to containers of 3.4oz or less that fit in your quart-sized bag. For checked bags you are limited to five liters per passenger.
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u/King-Moses666 Jun 14 '22
Right! With lakes being deadlier than firearms I have a perfect reason to not try and face my fear of water.
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u/davoud20 Jun 14 '22
Let's subsidise a lifeguard for every single body of water in Canada, make it illegal to drown, and create a water possession and acquisition licence so people don't take water and make prohibited lakes. The big lakes should be non-restricted and all small bodies of water should be restricted because they are easy to conceal. We should also limit the number of swimmers at any pool or swimming area to 5 adults and 10 children, just because adults are big and scary.
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 17 '22
Went to get my haircut today and the barber and customer next to me were talking about guns. The guy kinda knew what he was talking about, but the barber was bullshiting him so hard.
She was saying shit like "I built an AR for $250 in the US", she couldn't remember the name of the ATF, and said she had a "mold for a silencer" in the US.
If these are the people that influence opinion, we're so fucked.
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u/VisNihil Jun 19 '22
I built an AR for $250 in the US
You could build a complete AR for $280 a couple of years ago but yeah it sounds like she was just bullshitting.
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 17 '22
I was waiting for something like this to be published
Liberals still mulling delivery of dental care as clock ticks to fulfil pledge to NDP
This may be the catalyst that forces the NDP to vote non-confidence. They can't support the LPC to the end of the deal if they aren't gonna get their end of the bargain. The question is, when are they gonna pull the plug? I'm guessing it will be over a budget, but I don't know if it will be the next one or the one after.
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u/wolfgang94 Jun 17 '22
How fucked are the NDP's finances is the question
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 17 '22
Agreed. Look out for their fundraising data the next couple quarters.
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Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22
Some of my edit in a reply didn't go through and I figured it's worth being a standalone comment:
The opposition is predicting the next move and hopping onto the self defence argument. The toothless, and quite frankly, spineless world view of "gun owners must be nice and show that sports shooting is what we're about!! :DD" is obsolete. Me and a handful of users have already pointed out that leaning hard on this angle shoves us into a corner, where the public perceives this thing of ours as a frivolous, rich guy hobby. It just so happens that this "hobby" is dangerous - so what's stopping the government from banning it entirely?
Users here may not like that for whatever reason. Fact of the matter is, 50 years of sports shooting has gotten us nowhere. The gun community in Canada needs to change with the times and no, leaning harder on sports shooting isn't going to cut it any more.
E: reposting the article that floydsmoot posted:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/guns-must-not-be-used-for-self-defense-canadas-trudeau-insists
Dear Leader is trying real hard.
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Jun 13 '22
There really is no argument one can bring up when arguing with the liberals to justify this hobby (not that one should have to justify it in the first place).
Bring up self defence and well you’ve said it yourself.
Bring up hunting and you’ll have a bunch of vegans flocking to shit on you.
Bring up the fact that sports shooting is just another hobby that you enjoy responsibly and you’ll have assholes saying things like “Oh my god this is such a dangerous hobby, nobody should have guns, why don’t you try gardening/find a new hobby” (like who do these people think they are to tell others what hobbies people do and don’t get to enjoy)?
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u/floydsmoot Jun 14 '22
The LPC has been using gun owners as whipping boys/scape goats/milch cows as far back as I can remember (and I'm old).
Nothing is going to stop them from continuing to do so.
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Jun 13 '22
You have to go with the most defendable, less-holes-in-it argument when dealing with liberals. Unfortunately most of them have already made their mind up and its about making an impression to spectators.
Self defence is the most defendable. Protecting life and your property are two things that are (obviously) worth defending.
Hunting, as /u/throwa37 stated, has a utilitarian purpose that people recognize as a legitimate reason for keeping guns. Why do you think people have this misconception that bolt guns, shotguns and a few semi autos are going to be safe from OIC? They're used by fudds (who unfortunately make up most of this community) and they're associated with hunting. People won't touch them.
Sports shooting on the other hand, who gives a shit. IPSC shooters, Olympic shooters, skeet shooters, they can go find another profession since guns are dangerous.
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u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22
The biggest issue with the self defense argument is that the public perception is that we are all waiting by the front door with a gun in each hand waiting for someone to come in.
Sadly the perception of the American gun nutt haunts us.
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Jun 13 '22
Anyone with two brain cells should know that Canada and America are two separate countries. The arguments and opinions I'm proposing are meant for people on the fence about gun ownership in Canada.
Sure, stinky big bad Americans are our neighbors, but they're not us and we shouldn't let them dictate how our country goes about doing things.
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u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22
Just playing devil's advocate, because we live in a world where the moral compass spins like a helicopter blade.
Let's say that tomorrow getting a gun for self defense becomes a valid. Can you imagine any scenario where that would benefit gun owners? Because at the end of the day the CBC will omit any part of the story it has to in order to run the story in an anti-gun fasion.
Let's face it, if they had to cover the Friday the 13th movies it would read: "The body of Jason Voorhees has been discovered on Saturday the 14th at Crystal Lake. The victim of a tragic shooting by several teenages. Jason was a quiet guy who loved hockey, slow menacing walks with his machete and his mother."
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Jun 13 '22
The benefit is that people wouldn't have to wait minutes for police to deal with a home invasion, theft, assault, violent crime, whatever.
There's not much of a point in trying to win over legacy media outlets like the CBC. They can say what they want but as long as people have the ability to protect themselves and aren't dragged through the legal system for no good reason, that's fine by me.
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u/DJW2289 Jun 14 '22
You forget that trudeau has 0 brain cells and uses American events to rile up his base and build support.
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u/WhatAShame8 Jun 13 '22
Anecdotal, but I have a short story. My uncle and aunt from vancouver visited me in May and I took him out shooting on the last week before he left. (His first time shooting). Yesterday I got a call from him saying that when he uploaded the photos of him at the range to show his friends, 90% of the feedback was positive and most people who commented wanted guns for themselves for self defence (they’re laymen so they don’t know thats not legal). Maybe public opinion towards guns isn’t as bad as they say. My uncle is a 68 y/o chinese boomer vancouver urbanite. He went from uninformed and apathetic to guns to pro-gun with one day at the range.
I agree Self-defence needs to be articulated for us to have any hopes of keeping guns in the long run, but taking people to the range is also the fastest way to educate the public.
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u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22
That's the same way I fight the good fight.
I had one girlfriend a few years back who was completely anti-gun, and worked in an industry that is anti-gun in general. I took her out to a friend's farm and blasted a few pumpkins with a 12 AWG. She quietly told her friend at work about it. And her friend admit to her she was into skeet shooting. They went to shoot skeet together and she ran into half dozen people from work out there. People who she's know for a decade that had to keep it quiet, and advised her to do the same. Which to me is completely insane. But hey, one more putting down the koolaid.
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u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 13 '22
Jesus christ that's kinds scary to hear. People who are parade as anti-gun but actually secretly shoot guns? Atleast you got through to another one.
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u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22
They don't really parade as anti gun, they just don't admit to being pro gun.
It's a big shame really because I think that people who are in the left but are pro gun could really do some good debunking some of the left myths.
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u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 14 '22
I agree with you. I know some really left wing people who think liking firearms = American 2A supporter, but they own bolt action (dont hunt) rifles which is A-OKAY. So confusing to me.
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u/Fredarius Jun 15 '22
Sadly the only way I see self defence wit a gun becomes allowable is such a egregious court case where a woman is defending her children from a most horrific of a person attacking them. Then the lady shoots the dude/s dead and then the RCMP charges her with murder and then gets convicted somehow and then it winds it way to the Supreme Court and then somehow the big minds of the court decide that defence with gun is permissionable and a reason to own said gun. Until then we’re gonna get death by a thousand cuts.
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u/WhatAShame8 Jun 15 '22
I actually agree. There needs to be a landmark case, or as bad as it sounds, illegal gun crime needs to sky rocket after the ban. Homeowners imprisoned for injuring a home invader being publicized. People feeling unsafe in general. Acceleration might be the only way.
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u/95Percent_Rookie Jun 13 '22
the problem in canada is not the argument for why we own them. Plenty of people in the USA want to ban guns(and have banned guns) despite having a myriad of self defence aeguments. What protects US gun owners is a constitutional right to own firearms, enshrined in a document nigh impossible to revoke. We can say we want yo own guns for whatever reason we want, reality is anti-gunners really don’t care and see no reason as valid.
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u/throwa37 Jun 13 '22
Yes, but since we have no 2A, we have to rely on good arguments to keep our guns. We need a persuasive argument that can be both logically and morally defended. We need an actual reason to own guns. Sport is not that reason. We should not expect to sway the minds of people who view gun ownership as dangerous by telling them that we, personally, are safe with our toys, and by the way, you don't need to drink! It doesn't matter that the alcohol analogy is sound; if all they're taking from you is a leisure activity, they're not going to think twice about it.
Just look at hunting. That's an actual utilitarian reason to own guns, and as a result it's still respected and "hunting" guns are considered legitimate to own by the majority of the public. It only justifies a small subset of firearms, though, and it doesn't necessarily justify keeping firearms at home.
That's why we need to change the culture to accept self defence. Without it, we have no defensible justification to keep our guns.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 13 '22
change the culture to accept self defence
I think we all know that one big reason Canadians buy guns is for protection, but we can't say this which needs to change and brought out into the open
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u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 13 '22
I know It definitely came to my mind when buying one of my shotguns lol.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 13 '22
I'll bet it's on most gun buyers minds.
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u/yummybunnybear Jun 13 '22
I'm totally just practising target shooting in case I have to target shoot in real life.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 13 '22
What protects US gun owners is a constitutional right to own firearms
This and the fact that guns are recognized as an accepted method of self defence (which is not the case here). I read recently that it's the number one reason that Americans buy a firearm.
Czechia is the only other country I can think of where its accepted as a method f self defence.
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u/yummybunnybear Jun 13 '22
I agree but we need a "made in Canada" version of the self defence argument. Canadians are too scared of the American urban "castle doctrine" or "concealed carry" version of self defence. A Canadian version of self defence should focus on:
Home and property defence for rural and indigenous communities against wild animals and home invasion where police response is poor compared to in cities. This circumvents the nimbyism of urban residents.
Immigrants who ran from oppressive regimes should assert their right to train in the event they are called to defend their old country (Syria, Ukraine). This appeals to Canada's commitment to multiculturalism and international peace keeping.
Women-centered self defence programs should exist to build confidence and to encourage filling the gender gap in law enforcement occupations. This appeals to lifting up the status of women.
We can cater the Canadian case for the defensive use of firearms that would appeal to a wider liberal Canadian audience. What doesn't work is going full 2A American or going passive "guns for sport eh".
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Jun 13 '22
Made me laugh a bit but you're not wrong. It's a good idea to consider.
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u/yummybunnybear Jun 13 '22
Would you laugh if I suggest high capacity mags to reduce the use of plastic?
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Jun 13 '22
Arguments for women's self-defense (and other weaker groups) is good, because it aligns with promoting equality (of ability to defend oneself). I think another good argument is law enforcement, as in anyone who enforces the law(aka most gun owners) is law enforcement. They may not be an officer, but if they have the strength and the will to protect others then they are law enforcement and thus disarming them is ludicrous.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 14 '22
Arguments for women's self-defense
Good luck with that
MP Kellie Leitch proposed legalizing pepper spray for women and was roundly chastised for suggesting such a thing:
"Patty Hajdu says we should just stop men from raping instead"
https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/12/canadian-politician-pepper-spray-offensive-women-men-rape/
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Jun 15 '22
And so much for self-defence being a niche thought. Maybe it should be talked about more (adblocker has to be disabled for this one)
What's your first purchase when the 2020 OIC is repealed?
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Jun 15 '22
Me before may 2020: I think those people who dress up in plate carriers and shoot ar15’s are pretty cringey, but they probably say the same about my poncho and lever action.
Me after may 2020: I need 5 ar15’s, plate carriers for me and the kids, nods, and a claymore roomba.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 15 '22
Yes, I think Dear Leader's verbal diarrhea about being unable to defend yourself with a gun has pissed off a lot of people.
Here's a good video with Andrew Lawton and criminal lawyer Sam Goldstein:
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 15 '22
I have seen quite a few "is Trudeau done" type articles recently as well as general anti-LPC articles.
I definitely get the sense that the tide is turning, I didn't really get this sense in 2019 or 2021. However, there is a major difference to this minority, the LPC-NDP deal. If that wasn't in place I think we would be gearing up for an election in the next 7 months.
I can see many different timelines of when an election will be called. Everything from spring 2023 to summer 2025. If an election is called early I am fairly confident in what triggers it, a monetary/budget issue. I say this specifically because everything the NDP wants from their deal has to do with money for things. If they don't get them, they will vote down the budget.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 15 '22
Personally, I don't think Dear Leader is going to run again. People are starting to see through his "Sunny ways" BS and he's becoming a liability to the LPC.
Having said that, it doesn't matter because whoever takes over won't change their agenda of getting rid of private gun ownership.
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u/drain-angel BC Jun 15 '22
Honestly I thought 2023 was way too soon for an election as well but given all the moves the Libs recently have been taking to try to cripple every edge the CPC has - alongside with the last few polls showing for +6 with the CPC, alongside with having expensive promises to pay for while having to command rate hikes that they can easily bail on by calling an election then (buyback, dental/pharmacare, etc.), honestly the logic for it makes more and more sense - rate hikes paired with quantitative tightening won't work for the money printer for all of these promises, but campaigning on them for the 3rd/4th time and blaming the NDP? That'll do.
Spring 2023 may be a touch too early, but maybe Summer or Fall would be my new guess.
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u/TechnologyReady Radical Centrist Jun 14 '22
Word on the street is that the SECU committee meeting for today has been cancelled. Another bullet dodged.
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u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 14 '22
Do you have anysource? June 7th was reverse Christmas for me, and now Reverse Christmas is coming back to haunt me today unless big Daddy JT being sick means it's canceled.
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u/Mbzeek Jun 14 '22
Oh how turd has changed his tune.
https://twitter.com/C_L_Anderson/status/1534261090988613633?t=1wC8Ai-qa3xxPQeyaRvn-A&s=07
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Jun 16 '22 edited Jun 16 '22
"... [the police] can't get there in time to stop something before it happens"
Interesting to see Trudeau's recent comments getting attention from popular Youtube channels and firearms rights organizations down south. Colion's video goes into a lot more, some of it centered around America, but I can see some of his talking points being palatable for our urbanite friends.
Self-defence, yet again, being something of more importance than sports shooting.
E: one of his closing points criticizes people who think we can progress past violence, or that a country is too advanced for firearms. Makes you wonder.
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 17 '22
Colion is by far my favorite 2A advocate, he's logical, articulate, and knowledgeable. I very often find myself agreeing with him on basically everything, and this is no different.
However, what his videos show to me is how much different Canadian society is from the US. Can you imagine any Canadian politician saying anything ever like this? I can't even imagine Pierre saying this with his focus on Freedom TM.
I have never felt so detached from Canada and I am not confident I will ever reattach.
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Jun 17 '22
It's really only the liberal party that have taken us so far left. I don't see any other Canadian politician saying the same thing, or the average Canadian thinking that Trudeau's statement is right. Only a vocal minority controls us, unfortunately
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 17 '22 edited Jun 17 '22
While the NDP has been generally silent, they've been backing everything the LPC does. They have earned a large portion of the blame as well.
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u/throwa37 Jun 17 '22
God, it's embarrassing. It's one thing to say "you can't carry a firearm for defence in Canada", or something like that, but his implication that Canadians just aren't allowed to defend themselves with a gun under any circumstances makes us sound fucking crazy, and it isn't true. I have no idea why some people think pacifism at all costs is a virtue.
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Jun 17 '22
There's a good amount of people in this country who are exactly what Colion described - they think we've progressed past violence, that the police are omnipotent and can save us whenever and wherever.
It sounds edgy but these people are domesticated. They've forgotten the difference between a citizen and a subject
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u/throwa37 Jun 17 '22
Lol, it does sound edgy, but it's true. When you have a prosperous, comfortable society, it's easy for people to fall into a mindset that the government is their caretaker.
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u/throwawaythecitiot Jun 13 '22
I recently discovered the Canadian Conservative Party podcast and they did an interview with MP Dancho on this topic. Pretty interesting discussion.
I know the CPC power is limited with the Lib-NDP alliance in power but at least they are bringing attention to the folly of this. Link below:
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 15 '22
One thing I've noticed over the last 3 years as I've gotten into the politics of guns is how enabling the Firearms Act is for future gun control. Like what purpose could the GIC being able to suspended transfers be for except a handgun ban? The May OIC is the most blatant example of this.
Now I am not old enough to even have been alive for the passing of the Firearms Act, so for the people that have memories of it, was the enabling of future gun control a major sticking point of the bill? Or was it just so shit that focusing on what could come in the future was just not a priority
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Jun 15 '22 edited Jun 15 '22
The Liberals always planned on bringing in more gun control after the act was passed but the party fell apart when Jean Chretien resigned as Prime Minister in 2002. It brought down his entire government. Paul Martin took over temporarily as head of the Liberal Party and stayed until the election and at that point their gun control scheme stalled. The reason all that is relevant is because we would have seen a lot more gun control from the liberals had their party not lost power when they did. They setup the firearms act with the intention of bringing in more and more gun control with each passing term. Their goal was always a total ban on firearms in Canada and they didn't try to hide it in the nineties. It wasn't until they knew they were close to defeating Harper and the CPC that they suddenly changed their tune.
Even when Chretien was in office, the LPC always knew another party would take over at some point, so they intentionally made the Firearms Act easy to manipulate but hard to repeal. That's what they're doing with C-21, the LPC have stated their intention to make it as hard as they possibly can for any future government to undo. We're seeing a repeat of the Chretien administration with Trudeau, and C-21 nearly mirrors the legislation passed under Chretien but goes even further. We've got the new air gun ban to go with the old airsoft ban, a total prohibition on replica guns even if they're kids toys or replicas of antiques. The handgun freeze, the new extended record keeping. More magazine restrictions and more rules and regulations to contend with, by the time it's done the legislation we're told "won't affect law abiding gun owners" will wipe out shooting sports in the country and crush countless legitimate businesses. On top of that, I'm sure the LPC is already planning more ways to attack gun ownership in the future. They knew exactly what they were doing with Firearms Act in 1995, don't doubt it.
TLDR: There's no way to condense this without using foul language.
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Jun 15 '22
So like 10 years ago I purchased a replica pirates flintlock when in Spain and brought it back and gifted to an anonymous person. This passes will that person be in possession of a prohibited firearm? Lmao the state of this shithole I swear.
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Jun 16 '22
It'll be a prohibited device, if you drop a pea in the barrel and flick the gun forward really fast to eject the pea and send it flying through the air, it'll be a prohibited firearm. That's how ridiculous our gun laws are. Whenever I hear or see people say "Canada needs more gun control" I immediately know they have no idea what they're talking about.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 15 '22
The LPC has been using gun owners as their whipping boys/scape goats/milch cows ever since I remember and I'm old.
I remember Allan Rock saying he doesn't want a single gun in private hands in Canada.
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u/drain-angel BC Jun 15 '22 edited Jun 15 '22
I think the will for gun control was much stronger than it was today - in the english-speaking world context as well. I'm young as well but from what I can tell the US was going through the AWB, 922(r) bullshit (which gave us the SL8, but the AWB was part of that as well I guess), effectively a Full Auto Ban, etc.
The UK saw 99.99% of handguns wiped out (sounds familiar?) alongside with a ton of shit in the 90s as well.
Australia had their big gun ban as well in '96.
I just think it was a blip in time where the pendulum swung very, very hard one way, and that any suggestion of moving any other way back then would turn you into a political pariah.
E: I just did a bit of digging, apparently in 2000 there was a challenge to the FA by 7 provinces who said it was unconstiutitonal but it was struck down by the SCC. I'm poking around using just Google Scholar and searching for old shit regarding C-17 & C-68 under Chretein, honestly it would be interesting to see how firearms legislation were laid out since the only real sources we get are paraphrased from the mouth of PSS/CGC.
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Jun 15 '22
Can someone smarter than I am explain to the class how a "majority of Canadians/gun owners support the freeze on handguns and the semi-auto ban, according to a new Leger poll that Poly is pushing?
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Jun 15 '22
These kinds of polls are always biased and one sided and meant to influence the opinions of voters who don't understand the issues. The questions alone show the bias involved, not to mention the small sample size and the severely exaggerated extrapolation of the data. Claiming 9 out of 10 Canadians support something based on the response of 1500 people in a country of thirty million? That’s just dishonest. Not to mention we have no idea where these 1500 people are located or what their political leanings are. The rest of the data is just as bad.
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u/Scopequest Jun 15 '22
I would wager the people responding to that pole are not familiar with reality and that this taints the validity of their answer and of the pole.
Example: 93% support stronger background checks... I bet they don't know the existing background check is life long and includes as much as it does. I bet if you asked them to give an idea of what stronger measures they support it would already be included.
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Jun 16 '22
Future background checks will involve an RCMP officer getting into a time machine, going back to the day you were born, following you until the day you pass away from old age and then returning to our time to determine your eligibility for a firearms license. No one in Canada will ever be approved for a license again.
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u/TechnologyReady Radical Centrist Jun 15 '22
On the one-hand, the numbers coming from gun-owners seems to show there must be something wrong with this poll.
On the other hand... my father-in-law is a long-time gun owner (fudd) and ex-RCMP, and he doesn't really even understand this stuff. He supports Trudeau's ban on "assault weapons" because (he says) nobody needs a machine gun. Former RCMP officer. He also doesn't see why anybody should own a handgun.
So, given that the majority of gun owners in Canada are fudds, is this result as impossible as it seems?
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u/WhoaUhThray Jun 15 '22
This reminds me of them saying in interviews ( Mendicino and/or Trudeau ) that they 'spoke with range owners and sport shooters' in crafting C-21. Like, really? WHO are these people?! If they actually supported more restrictions I'd like to know what reality they're in, and if they didn't, I would expect them to be out here saying to anyone who will listen that they were consulted and pushed back!
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 15 '22 edited Jun 15 '22
The "gun owner" one is straight up useless. The sample size is so small it means nothing. I mean like seriously, if it was that high that would mean a significant amount of RPAL holders support a ban in their own guns.
The other one is absolutely nothing new. There is a reason I and many others have very little hope for the future of firearms in Canada long term. You could poke a hole in that survey because they said "assault rifle", but it's not out of line with what has been polled with different wording.
Polling Canada account posted these results too and also included Leger's US results. Gun laws should be... and support for [insert gun control]. I don't know what it says about the Canadian results, but the US results are all out of line with American polls. The background checks are in line with other surveys, but "assault weapons" ban support is at the high end ~65% and at the low end ~45%. "Buyback program" is also directly tied to the previous one and therefor is off. "Handgun ban" is waaaaaaaaay out of line. Gallup, a much more reputable American polling company, has handgun ban support at 19%.
Honestly, I don't think Leger is good at polling the US and while they're Canadian numbers are very high it's not out of line with previous polls.
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u/drain-angel BC Jun 15 '22 edited Jun 15 '22
Issues with Canadian polling (self-serving pre-selected demographic & engineered questions) and extremely questionable weighting (55+) and methodology aside, I still find it interesting that in both countries where attitudes towards gun control are inverse with age.
Look at the Boomers, GenX/Late Millennial, Zoomers in both countries. Perhaps there's hope in Canada if anything down the road.
Also this contradicts a StatsCan survey from 2017 and an Angus Reid poll from last month. Makes me question the Leger panel since they've been the most accurate with elections.
Edit : Apparently 60% of Tories (n=359) want handguns banned on page 28. Lmao this data is bunk.
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Jun 15 '22
Probably wording of the question. The poll says nothing about handguns it says " do you support a ban on assault rifles" which are already banned and have been a long time
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u/improbablydrunknlw Anyone got Mike from Canmores number? Jun 17 '22
I love that every new comment is immediately downvoted. Someone is salty.
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u/kiddmanty12 Jun 17 '22 edited Jun 17 '22
It's someone from Poly.
I'm guessing someone that's "higher" up or at least involved in their Twitter. They've used our subreddit to complain about someone that was proud of their collection on twitter before.
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u/Redbulldildo Jun 17 '22
Reddit has tons of bots trying to manipulate stuff, and vote fuzzing to hide whether the bots work or not. Your votes will always fluctuate a bit.
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u/ggdrguy Jun 14 '22
Anyone get a restricted transfer done in Sask since the hammer came down on the 30th? Bought a couple late on the 1st and nothing yet, hearing some ab and bc already done from the 4th or after. Thanks!
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Jun 14 '22
Anyone have even a guess at what the new secure storage laws will be? The PM said that no one should use a gun for self defense anyone else expecting the law(s) to reflect that? Like I'm imagining, all guns in safe (probably with a new definition of safe) and ammo has to be stored separately from guns maybe even in a separate safe. Of course this is entirely my speculation do not take it as fact.
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u/Haybinger949 12(7) Jun 15 '22
Somewhere between the May 2020 OIC and the original C-21 there was talk about making the storage requirements for the new prohibs more stringent than either their original classes(NR/R) and more restrictive than most of the current grandfathered prohibs - I am guessing it will just be an updated/established set of guidelines regarding this.
Additionally the "updated marking regulations" is probably just going to be the third kick at the can of implementing the UN Import Marking scheme.
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u/yummybunnybear Jun 14 '22
Based on some things that slipped out of Bill Blair's mouth in the past, I suspect the new rules would impose tighter rules about using gun safes rather than keeping them in a cloth or plastic container. Maybe impose the dual lock requirement for NR guns like R guns.
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Jun 13 '22
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u/RedditSgtMajor Jun 13 '22
Ha! Try living in Ontario. Waiting on three new handguns for the next 6+ months, I suspect.
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Jun 13 '22
Welcome to the club, Ive been waiting for 10 days since approval. And have been getting the "our shipping department is busy". Firearm was purchased on May 30th, Transfer approved June 2nd.
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Jun 14 '22
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Jun 14 '22
Whenever Trudeau catches covid I suspect he's gone into hiding, and whenever he goes into hiding, I suspect something big is about to go down. Whenever something big is about to go down and it involves Trudeau, it's not likely to be anything good.
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u/ggghosted Jun 16 '22
Whats the news?
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Jun 16 '22
Trudeau sucks and we have a chance of getting great gun laws if we all vote conservative
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u/ggghosted Jun 16 '22
Obviously. I’m now a one issue voter, all parties basically saying they’ll do the same stuff, might as well go for the one that favours more fun
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u/SurtseyHuginn Jun 16 '22
For a moment I thought you were referring to an announcement today, but I haven't seen anything. Can you confirm ? Like no OIC ?
I'm so tired of this state of constant worrying
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Jun 16 '22
I can't confirm but I don't think anything is happening today.
I wasn't referring to anything either, just saying Dear Leader sucks
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u/drain-angel BC Jun 13 '22
So I posted this about 2 weeks ago and didn't get an actual response besides "Reddit full of Libs" (I know) but given that these discussions continue to be a reoccurring theme I'm going to rehash & expend on it a little.
The discussion on electoralism in firearm politics here always skews one way as previously aforementioned. Barring the obvious that some of these takes are bad-faith personal opinions/views construed in a way to present them as political reality, in contradiction to current polling data, political results & precedent ; quite frankly it doesn't provide any real solutions to stop the community from bleeding (or progressing in positive conditions through "rights"), but just suggests we should maintain an ever regressing status quo - which I'd assume most would agree is unacceptable not only now but since May 2020 or C-71. Not only that, but I've seen comments being reductive to the point of just having bolt actions and shotguns is somehow an acceptable end.
If the issue is being upset with the current political partisanship (or conduct) of advocacy groups and/or representatives, why not actually make a change? If you live in (or near) a riding where you have, say, a NDP/BQ/GPC vs LPC split riding (many of those in suburban areas), why don't you go and try to offer canvassing & volunteering support (for NDP/BQ) in turn for their support for the firearms community?
It's a hell of a lot more productive than blabbing about a complete reorganization or eviction of ingroups of existing parties/advocacy groups. And/Or if you can't bring yourself to vote Conservative, then spoil the ballot if this issue is enough to bother you (or vote for another party that closely aligns with your views). Because it wasn't that long ago that NDP MPs were permitted to dissent on the LGR vote (2 did), the BQ transitioning to a more rural base, and even the GPC is considering adopting a pro-gun position (barring a membership vote), so clearly it's not impossible to gain from that front. Not to mention, this can even work provincially and push for provinces to move on certain issues as well (such as adopting their own CFO, removing the range requirement for RPALs, and a less hostile CFO in general as we see in AB/SK).
(And this applies to the Conservatives living in these ridings too where the CPC has no chance.)
There are also plenty of other non-partisan ways of supporting the community as well, for example supporting your local Wildlife Associations/Federations, supporting current litigation (such as the ATRS legal battle), writing to the Senate/your MP for positive amendments for things such as C-21, or something as simple as taking someone ignorant out for a range day and/or educating them.
Speaking of which, I'd also like to bring back the accessibility discussion as well. Over the last few weeks, trying to help a gun-curious friend in the GTA get his PAL, there has been so much insane barriers for someone who has no IRL connections into the community at all, it's basically impossible for him to find a place to shoot a gun unlicensed without insane time & cost or having to wait months and months on end alongside with an absurdly expensive CFSC course. Ranges, advocacy groups, you & I should not only just be taking people out shooting for the whole "hearts and minds" shit but also be opening up to the public more (who don't have a gun owning friend but are curious) with supervised shooting sessions for those who don't really have an "in". Like some of those bigger National Range Day events but more common and frequent.
Ultimately, at least I hope, many of us are on the same side. But if the current options of aid are unacceptable to your terms, there are plenty of many other ways to do so without compromising your personal choices, and it'd be a lot more productive than rolling over.
Unrelated, but I also highly recommend watching the most recent Silvercore Podcast, which had some excellent points and perhaps even deserves a subscription to Calibre Magazine to help support the GunVote project as mentioned around 1Hr 1Min which I think would very much help in regards to canvassing/getting the vote out (link to TL;DW)
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u/BillBlairsWeedStocks Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22
Still cant get through to the cfo.
Ontario is particularly awful. At least you guys in the coasts get an exclusive hour to yourselves. I gotta share with all the popular provinces.
Its the hang ups that really get my goat.
Edit: called 161 instead. Got through.
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u/HemiJay_Toronto Jun 14 '22
I tried the 1-6-1 approach. Got through right away. They wouldn’t complete the restricted transfer for me.
I have my reference number, as the seller got through last week after about 1100 tries (no, really!) but I’m 650 calls in and no dice yet.
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u/armor64 Jun 13 '22
its been a nightmare, tried every day last week, over 50 attempts a day. Trying to get my dads 2 heirloom restricted transferred to me for safety, but cant get in. If it connects to the queue, it will disconnect after 3-5 mins. but 90% of the time it immediately goes "sorry , call again later"
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Jun 14 '22
What happened to that thing where they were trying to freeze the buying and selling of handguns? I am getting my PAL and would like to get my RPAL but see no reason to waste the money if handguns will just be banned anyways.
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Jun 14 '22
Even if they are banned they're probably going to get unbanned. Just get your RPAL
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u/CKKovac6576 Jun 15 '22
No way. Has anything ever been unbanned?
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Jun 15 '22
Yeah. ARs have been banned, unbanned, banned and then unbanned in the 70s as far as I remember. LGR was repealed by Harper and people weren't clamoring for guns like they are today.
Proof of concept exists and the CPC knows that they have a loyal voter base if they win. Pierre having 300k new members eligible to vote is saying something. Canadians want guns now.
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u/yummybunnybear Jun 14 '22
It's possible for some current nonrestricted firearms to be moved to restricted status if the antigunners keep protesting against nonrestricted centerfire semiautos. And there are already rifles that are restricted. Not telling you what to do, but I would still get an RPAL now so I won't get stuck in a queue later if people start rushing to get it. As we found out with the handgun freeze, it can pay off to be prepared with an RPAL even if you currently don't need it.
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Jun 14 '22
It's still going on, it will go through however handguns aren't the only restricted and the CPC might overturn this. You can try but you probably won't get handguns for atleast a few years
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Jun 14 '22
So what is the deal with the may 18th soft registry? Does the gubermint know that I have specific guns for anything purchased afterwards or do they only know that I have bought guns themself.
Just wondering if this can somehow lead into taking away guns bought after the 18th or if that isn't a concern yet.
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u/eastvanarchy Jun 14 '22
anything bought from a store is recorded for 20 years, and the police can access that information without a warrant
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u/SurtseyHuginn Jun 14 '22 edited Jun 14 '22
I just received my transfer number after having bought a handgun on june 8th. Store located in ontario, but I'm a Quebecistan resident.
Meaning that it took 6 days to have the transfer initiated in that specific set up. If you're in a similar situation, and bought a handgun more than six days ago, it's likely that turdeau won't be able to put his dirty hands on it.
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u/Apples_and_Overtones Your feet suck and so do you Jun 14 '22 edited Jun 15 '22
Wow that's fast. I bought on the 4th in AB (ON store - SFRC) and have heard nothing.
Edit: I checked with the store and my transfer is indeed with the CFO. Next time on Dragonball Z...
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u/Sprookie07 Jun 18 '22
Will there be more handguns coming into stock, missed the opportunity to buy one :(
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u/Batsinvic888 Bats888 on YouTube Jun 18 '22
If we manage to make it into the parliament recess without a handgun freeze, maybe. Retailers will have a bit of June and all of July, August, and September to buy, import, and sell handguns.
I wouldn't expect massive new shipments, but probably some of the most popular brands they know will sell (Glock, CZ, FN, etc.)
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u/voodoopriest Jun 18 '22
Ellwood Epps has lots.
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Jun 19 '22
Man really goes to show how big of an impact a lack of online services has.. their website sucks and i havent heard of them much but they actually have stock left!
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u/ggghosted Jun 13 '22
Lets see what happens tomorrow.
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u/SurtseyHuginn Jun 13 '22
I really have a bad feeling. Pretty sure I'm going to end up in the worst spot with a bought p320 rxp that I can't move from the gunshop
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Jun 13 '22
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Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22
Apparently there is a possibility of the pistol transfer ban going through but I doubt it, the senate seems to be dragging their feet and hasn't gotten to it yet
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u/AlmostUnpleasant69 Jun 16 '22
Need advice. I have to move tomorrow and have a restricted. Been trying to get through to the RCMP to change my address and get an ATT but literally cant get through to them. What the fuck do I do?
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u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Jun 16 '22
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u/MajorCocknBalls Jun 16 '22
Are you calling your provincial CFO? It's easier to get a hold of them than the national line.
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Jun 16 '22
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u/Limp_Syllabub_4642 Jun 17 '22
I was able to join a club the day I finished my Loi 9. The guy who gave the course worked for the club and let me join with the provisional Loi 9 proof, or whatever it was. I didn't wait to get the certificate from FQTIR, and it worked fine for me.
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u/panzermeister36 Jun 16 '22
It is possible it could go through before the fall, but unlikely *in my opinion*. You've got 2 more meetings (Tues & Thurs) of the House before recess and a little longer for the Senate. House would have to pass it next week, send to Senate, and they would have to approve it without any changes which is not common; changes would require it goes back to the House and they might be out for the summer by then.
It's only one more week, so don't give up hope. If by this time next week it's not passed, you're clear to September at least.
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u/Putrid-Macaroon Jun 17 '22
Is anyone getting through to the CFO for restricted transfers?
I understand that the sheer volumes of transfers is slowing things down immensely, but everytime i try to start a Restricted transfer by calling in for the reference number, it drops the line. How are gun stores managing to get anything done?
Is there a different number we can call or a way to do it all online?
Super frustrating and it feels like the gov is more than happy to make it as slow and painful as possible.
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Jun 18 '22
I've literally called 30 times a day every day since the announcement to get two pistols transferred into my name I call at 1 minute after they open in the morning and it's already playing that stupid pre recorded message it's b******* it's some off the books attempt to control the gun sales because the government would look like a bunch of boobs for making their announcement that the announcement of the freeze wouldn't increase gun sales so if the RCMP were to start accepting all these transfers it would make the government look like a bunch of boobs that they are .you cannot buy a pistol in this country right now I get emails from Canada firearms outlet or whatever at 11:15 a.m. about new restocking of pistols by 5:00 when I got off work they were all sold out.
I sent in a transfer form registered mail they receive it but you can't call anybody about it because they don't answer the phone anywhere if you try and select five for general inquiries it'll hang up on you
I know the sequence of numbers and options right by heart I've called so many times
Press 1 for English Listen to the announcement as soon as she says strengthening our gun control laws ,
Press 4 to transfer a restricted firearm
Press 2 right away to continue with a restricted firearm transfer
It'll say one moment while we transfer you along those lines
You hear a half a ring . Exactly like when you call a cell phone that has your number blocked , half a ring and then the stupid pre recorded message . This doesn't put you on hold it just basically tells you to beat it and call back and then hangs up on you
Stupid Canadian government. I used to be so proud of living here and I used to think we had one of the best places to live in the world not anymore the government overreaching this country and the absolutely astonishing amount of f****** taxes we pay I can't stand it here anymore I hate it the problem is there's nowhere else to go kind of like our own government when it's time to vote no one to vote for f****** complete joke
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u/voodoopriest Jun 18 '22
The guy I bought a Vostok Margolin off of took 3 days to get through. The first day he called 23 times and did not get though. On the second day he called 72 times and still did not get though... He didn't tell me how many times he called on the third day.
If you are not retired and your time is valuable to you it might be better just to mail the transfer request in.
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Jun 19 '22
So whats the deal with the magazine restriction changes? are .22lr magazines being pinned to 5 too now?
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u/RaHarmakis Jun 19 '22
All we know is that they are Schrödinger's Magazines now.
Both pinned and unpinned until the government observes them.
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u/floydsmoot Jun 13 '22
Yes, I fully believe that the government will protect me /s
Guns Must Not Be Used For Self-Defense, Canada’s Trudeau Insists:
https://www.dailywire.com/news/guns-must-not-be-used-for-self-defense-canadas-trudeau-insists