r/canadaguns • u/AutoModerator • Jun 13 '22

Weekly Politics Thread

Please post all your Politics or Ban-related ideas, initiatives, comments, suggestions, news articles, and recommendations in this thread. Unless new information is published in the media, recurring articles related to the gov'ts ***possible*** legislation are to be posted here. These threads will be weekly, until it's necessary for another per-week.

Previous politics threads can be found here. Previous threads can be found here.

We understand that politics is a touchy subject, and at times things can get heated. A reminder of the subreddit rules, when commenting, where subreddit users are expected to abide.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22

Some of my edit in a reply didn't go through and I figured it's worth being a standalone comment:

The opposition is predicting the next move and hopping onto the self defence argument. The toothless, and quite frankly, spineless world view of "gun owners must be nice and show that sports shooting is what we're about!! :DD" is obsolete. Me and a handful of users have already pointed out that leaning hard on this angle shoves us into a corner, where the public perceives this thing of ours as a frivolous, rich guy hobby. It just so happens that this "hobby" is dangerous - so what's stopping the government from banning it entirely?

Users here may not like that for whatever reason. Fact of the matter is, 50 years of sports shooting has gotten us nowhere. The gun community in Canada needs to change with the times and no, leaning harder on sports shooting isn't going to cut it any more.

E: reposting the article that floydsmoot posted:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/guns-must-not-be-used-for-self-defense-canadas-trudeau-insists

Dear Leader is trying real hard.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

There really is no argument one can bring up when arguing with the liberals to justify this hobby (not that one should have to justify it in the first place).

Bring up self defence and well you’ve said it yourself.

Bring up hunting and you’ll have a bunch of vegans flocking to shit on you.

Bring up the fact that sports shooting is just another hobby that you enjoy responsibly and you’ll have assholes saying things like “Oh my god this is such a dangerous hobby, nobody should have guns, why don’t you try gardening/find a new hobby” (like who do these people think they are to tell others what hobbies people do and don’t get to enjoy)?

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u/floydsmoot Jun 14 '22

The LPC has been using gun owners as whipping boys/scape goats/milch cows as far back as I can remember (and I'm old).

Nothing is going to stop them from continuing to do so.

13

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

You have to go with the most defendable, less-holes-in-it argument when dealing with liberals. Unfortunately most of them have already made their mind up and its about making an impression to spectators.

Self defence is the most defendable. Protecting life and your property are two things that are (obviously) worth defending.

Hunting, as /u/throwa37 stated, has a utilitarian purpose that people recognize as a legitimate reason for keeping guns. Why do you think people have this misconception that bolt guns, shotguns and a few semi autos are going to be safe from OIC? They're used by fudds (who unfortunately make up most of this community) and they're associated with hunting. People won't touch them.

Sports shooting on the other hand, who gives a shit. IPSC shooters, Olympic shooters, skeet shooters, they can go find another profession since guns are dangerous.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '22

I know several veterans who participate in sports shooting as a means to work through PTSD. Some people seem to understand that reasoning from my experience.

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u/CalibreMag Jun 14 '22

"Find another sport."

That's what they'll say.

(And I am a PTSD patient, so btfo if anyone thinks I'm being glib about an extremely debilitating illness. I'm not. I'm just being realistic.)

Self-defence is truly the only reason to need a gun.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '22

Sports shooting is fine. Leaning on it to be your saving grace from any and all criticism isn't fine because it doesn't work.

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u/RatherBoringggggg Jun 18 '22

property is not "obviously" worth defending with deadly force. That's not at all a popular policy in Canada. Most Canadians find that abhorrent. Property can be replaced.

It would also be unconstitutional so a law would never pass.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '22

Speak for yourself. One look at your profile already says enough, stop being terminally online.

1

u/RatherBoringggggg Jun 19 '22

i am speaking for myself, and what the majority of Canadians believe.

I'm sorry my phone has internet access on it, please tell me more about how I should spend my time to please you

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '22

You're definitely not lol

1

u/Kurumi_Shadowfall Jun 16 '22

I like to bring up the indigenous traditions of hunting with firearms, and how certain first nations actually have treaties to receive ammunition per annum from the government. Further gun restrictions would impact first nations and their cultural practices.

I'm pro reconciliation, and I feel there's a lot of common ground in this regard with people who lean towards the LPC.

0

u/RatherBoringggggg Jun 18 '22

First Nation groups would be exempt from any regulations that conflict with their Treaty or indigenous rights or practices. That's what happened with the OiC in 2020

1

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '22

Sure, but voting liberal is a vote against guns. Doesn't particularly matter where you stand if the end result = liberal vote.

22

u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22

The biggest issue with the self defense argument is that the public perception is that we are all waiting by the front door with a gun in each hand waiting for someone to come in.

Sadly the perception of the American gun nutt haunts us.

12

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Anyone with two brain cells should know that Canada and America are two separate countries. The arguments and opinions I'm proposing are meant for people on the fence about gun ownership in Canada.

Sure, stinky big bad Americans are our neighbors, but they're not us and we shouldn't let them dictate how our country goes about doing things.

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u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22

Just playing devil's advocate, because we live in a world where the moral compass spins like a helicopter blade.

Let's say that tomorrow getting a gun for self defense becomes a valid. Can you imagine any scenario where that would benefit gun owners? Because at the end of the day the CBC will omit any part of the story it has to in order to run the story in an anti-gun fasion.

Let's face it, if they had to cover the Friday the 13th movies it would read: "The body of Jason Voorhees has been discovered on Saturday the 14th at Crystal Lake. The victim of a tragic shooting by several teenages. Jason was a quiet guy who loved hockey, slow menacing walks with his machete and his mother."

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

The benefit is that people wouldn't have to wait minutes for police to deal with a home invasion, theft, assault, violent crime, whatever.

There's not much of a point in trying to win over legacy media outlets like the CBC. They can say what they want but as long as people have the ability to protect themselves and aren't dragged through the legal system for no good reason, that's fine by me.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '22

Definitely not illegal. But I wouldn't want anyone to have their guns confiscated, pay six figures for court fees only to be found out they were in the right. That's getting into more complex things that I don't understand enough though.

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u/DJW2289 Jun 14 '22

You forget that trudeau has 0 brain cells and uses American events to rile up his base and build support.

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u/[deleted] Jun 14 '22

Trudeau has the brain cells his base doesn't

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u/WhatAShame8 Jun 13 '22

Anecdotal, but I have a short story. My uncle and aunt from vancouver visited me in May and I took him out shooting on the last week before he left. (His first time shooting). Yesterday I got a call from him saying that when he uploaded the photos of him at the range to show his friends, 90% of the feedback was positive and most people who commented wanted guns for themselves for self defence (they’re laymen so they don’t know thats not legal). Maybe public opinion towards guns isn’t as bad as they say. My uncle is a 68 y/o chinese boomer vancouver urbanite. He went from uninformed and apathetic to guns to pro-gun with one day at the range.

I agree Self-defence needs to be articulated for us to have any hopes of keeping guns in the long run, but taking people to the range is also the fastest way to educate the public.

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u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22

That's the same way I fight the good fight.

I had one girlfriend a few years back who was completely anti-gun, and worked in an industry that is anti-gun in general. I took her out to a friend's farm and blasted a few pumpkins with a 12 AWG. She quietly told her friend at work about it. And her friend admit to her she was into skeet shooting. They went to shoot skeet together and she ran into half dozen people from work out there. People who she's know for a decade that had to keep it quiet, and advised her to do the same. Which to me is completely insane. But hey, one more putting down the koolaid.

6

u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 13 '22

Jesus christ that's kinds scary to hear. People who are parade as anti-gun but actually secretly shoot guns? Atleast you got through to another one.

4

u/Q363Q Jun 13 '22

They don't really parade as anti gun, they just don't admit to being pro gun.

It's a big shame really because I think that people who are in the left but are pro gun could really do some good debunking some of the left myths.

6

u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 14 '22

I agree with you. I know some really left wing people who think liking firearms = American 2A supporter, but they own bolt action (dont hunt) rifles which is A-OKAY. So confusing to me.

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u/Fredarius Jun 15 '22

Sadly the only way I see self defence wit a gun becomes allowable is such a egregious court case where a woman is defending her children from a most horrific of a person attacking them. Then the lady shoots the dude/s dead and then the RCMP charges her with murder and then gets convicted somehow and then it winds it way to the Supreme Court and then somehow the big minds of the court decide that defence with gun is permissionable and a reason to own said gun. Until then we’re gonna get death by a thousand cuts.

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u/WhatAShame8 Jun 15 '22

I actually agree. There needs to be a landmark case, or as bad as it sounds, illegal gun crime needs to sky rocket after the ban. Homeowners imprisoned for injuring a home invader being publicized. People feeling unsafe in general. Acceleration might be the only way.

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u/95Percent_Rookie Jun 13 '22

the problem in canada is not the argument for why we own them. Plenty of people in the USA want to ban guns(and have banned guns) despite having a myriad of self defence aeguments. What protects US gun owners is a constitutional right to own firearms, enshrined in a document nigh impossible to revoke. We can say we want yo own guns for whatever reason we want, reality is anti-gunners really don’t care and see no reason as valid.

13

u/throwa37 Jun 13 '22

Yes, but since we have no 2A, we have to rely on good arguments to keep our guns. We need a persuasive argument that can be both logically and morally defended. We need an actual reason to own guns. Sport is not that reason. We should not expect to sway the minds of people who view gun ownership as dangerous by telling them that we, personally, are safe with our toys, and by the way, you don't need to drink! It doesn't matter that the alcohol analogy is sound; if all they're taking from you is a leisure activity, they're not going to think twice about it.

Just look at hunting. That's an actual utilitarian reason to own guns, and as a result it's still respected and "hunting" guns are considered legitimate to own by the majority of the public. It only justifies a small subset of firearms, though, and it doesn't necessarily justify keeping firearms at home.

That's why we need to change the culture to accept self defence. Without it, we have no defensible justification to keep our guns.

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u/floydsmoot Jun 13 '22

change the culture to accept self defence

I think we all know that one big reason Canadians buy guns is for protection, but we can't say this which needs to change and brought out into the open

4

u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 13 '22

I know It definitely came to my mind when buying one of my shotguns lol.

4

u/floydsmoot Jun 13 '22

I'll bet it's on most gun buyers minds.

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u/yummybunnybear Jun 13 '22

I'm totally just practising target shooting in case I have to target shoot in real life.

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u/TheChroniclesOfTaint Jun 14 '22

Yea my targets just so happen to be the same size and anatomy of a human torso but I actually shoot the out side of the target to make sure that I'll never hit a human ever.

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u/floydsmoot Jun 13 '22

What protects US gun owners is a constitutional right to own firearms

This and the fact that guns are recognized as an accepted method of self defence (which is not the case here). I read recently that it's the number one reason that Americans buy a firearm.

Czechia is the only other country I can think of where its accepted as a method f self defence.

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u/voodoopriest Jun 13 '22

I wonder... is Magna Carta still in play or did we sever it with the constitution act in 1982?

18

u/yummybunnybear Jun 13 '22

I agree but we need a "made in Canada" version of the self defence argument. Canadians are too scared of the American urban "castle doctrine" or "concealed carry" version of self defence. A Canadian version of self defence should focus on:

  • Home and property defence for rural and indigenous communities against wild animals and home invasion where police response is poor compared to in cities. This circumvents the nimbyism of urban residents.

  • Immigrants who ran from oppressive regimes should assert their right to train in the event they are called to defend their old country (Syria, Ukraine). This appeals to Canada's commitment to multiculturalism and international peace keeping.

  • Women-centered self defence programs should exist to build confidence and to encourage filling the gender gap in law enforcement occupations. This appeals to lifting up the status of women.

We can cater the Canadian case for the defensive use of firearms that would appeal to a wider liberal Canadian audience. What doesn't work is going full 2A American or going passive "guns for sport eh".

6

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Made me laugh a bit but you're not wrong. It's a good idea to consider.

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u/yummybunnybear Jun 13 '22

Would you laugh if I suggest high capacity mags to reduce the use of plastic?

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Very forward thinking.

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u/ggghosted Jun 13 '22 edited Jun 13 '22

I like the “Womens-centered Self Defense” stuff and this could be extremely popular. Educate women on firearms safety, and prioritize it. E: Mostly a “make” hobby, would love for more women to not be scared of joining a range or partaking in the sport of shooting.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Arguments for women's self-defense (and other weaker groups) is good, because it aligns with promoting equality (of ability to defend oneself). I think another good argument is law enforcement, as in anyone who enforces the law(aka most gun owners) is law enforcement. They may not be an officer, but if they have the strength and the will to protect others then they are law enforcement and thus disarming them is ludicrous.

15

u/floydsmoot Jun 14 '22

Arguments for women's self-defense

Good luck with that

MP Kellie Leitch proposed legalizing pepper spray for women and was roundly chastised for suggesting such a thing:

"Patty Hajdu says we should just stop men from raping instead"

https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/12/canadian-politician-pepper-spray-offensive-women-men-rape/

3

u/April_Ethereal Jun 13 '22

If sport shooting and hunting are "obsolete", then how / what should people be doing / talking about in your opinion? What is the change we should be following with the times and leaning on?

11

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Nothing. Just give up and let Trudeau do whatever he wants to gun owners. Any time we get criticized we must talk about how inclusive and peaceful we are while our semi autos, handguns and bolt guns get confiscated. Oh yeah and vote liberal.

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u/April_Ethereal Jun 13 '22

Too much of a coward to say it eh?

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Have you tried reading what I've been replying to other people are or you going to say stupid shit?

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u/April_Ethereal Jun 13 '22

I read all of your replies in this thread before making my first comment. And I've read all the new ones since, before making the next. What I want is for you to be direct rather than talking around it with vagaries.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Direct about what? I've been direct. This community needs to shift the narrative from sports shooting to self defence and property rights because the former is an obsolete argument. Is that not clear to you?

I've been saying this since I made a Reddit account.

-1

u/April_Ethereal Jun 13 '22

Yes, that half I'd gathered from other comments, but thank you for stating it directly as per my request. The other half is the how to go about facilitating that change (if you'd be so kind).

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u/April_Ethereal Jun 13 '22

Self-defence as a primary purpose for firearms ownership in this country has absolutely terrible optics, and will not be seen as reasonable by most people whether you want to admit that or not. It's worse than the "nothing" you believe advocacy from a sporting standpoint provides as it actively harms public perceptions by feeding into opposition scaremongering.

If you pursue that as a serious narrative you're playing right into Poly and the LPC's hands; you'll be standing in for the straw man they've created that all the firearms they're banning aren't owned for sporting or hunting purposes.

Please stop doing free opposition research.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '22

Anyways, 50 more years of sports shooting. Who's with me?

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u/April_Ethereal Jun 14 '22

Ignore reality at your own peril; just don't expect others to join you quietly.

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u/throwa37 Jun 14 '22

Self-defence as a primary purpose for firearms ownership in this country has absolutely terrible optics

Right, as opposed to sporting purpose. That has such good optics that ARs and handguns are banned now.

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u/April_Ethereal Jun 14 '22

OK dude, go challenge worse.

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