r/canadaguns • u/AutoModerator • Jun 06 '22

Weekly Politics Thread

Please post all your Politics or Ban-related ideas, initiatives, comments, suggestions, news articles, and recommendations in this thread. Unless new information is published in the media, recurring articles related to the gov'ts ***possible*** legislation are to be posted here. These threads will be weekly, until it's necessary for another per-week.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 07 '22

Our favorite firearms organizations aren't serving us well.

They have been happily taking everyone's money to "fight the OIC", etc. and spitting back messaging that makes their supporters happy, and not moving the needle at all.

Here's the thing: Our sport exists at the pleasure of the electorate. Firearms will never be a 'right'. No government will ever implement that. We borrow a lot of tone from our friends to the south, but it's really the worst thing to do, given that they have the 2A.

If we really want to expand the tent, we need to develop a Canadian-style message to reach the people that matter in Canada.

Because of Canada's situation, members of firearms advocacy groups don't matter much. Messaging that appeals to them, but falls flat with everyone else, achieves nothing.

Who DOES matter? The average urbanite in Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary, Montreal.

We need to shift our messaging to appeal to these folks. Primarily, we need to communicate that they will see friendly/familiar faces at the range on a Saturday afternoon. That the range is for them. The firearms community, in short, needs to be adopted by urbanites.

It will feel a bit like that underground band you always liked, that now has all these new fans who you don't think understand or care about the history. It will push away some people. It will change in unexpected ways. But that's the only path forward.

How do we achieve this? We need to:

-Get off our high horse. We're not 'smart' and opponents to our interests aren't 'stupid'. We all have emotions and bias.

-Media train ourselves. Understand that it's not a 'facts game'...it's a 'perception game'.

-The messaging and tone of our firearms advocacy organizations are are way off the mark. We need to demand more from them...or create a new organization.

-Adopt and reflect the views and language of urban Canada. They're the future.

-Forget talking about a 2A style implementation in Canadian law. It's a waste of resources and will push us further away from the other goals stated here.

-Clearly and openly denounce those who violate firearms laws or threaten violence with firearms. This has to be the topline priority, in bold. Canadians are awash in news of American mass shootings and we need to be in front of those stories...not pretending they don't exist. We need to strongly and overtly differentiate ourselves from the US so that laypeople understand that Canada is a very different place than the US. Casual browsers of all our media need to get an open and inviting tone from our communication.

-Shift the outward-facing narrative from lecturing, adversarial tone to inclusivity and invitation. We don't need to "educate" people....we need to welcome them.

I wish I could half bold, don't mean to yell. But wanted to highlight the key takeaways.

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u/throwa37 Jun 06 '22

What you're saying, whether you intend to or not, is that we should accept that gun ownership in this country is going to be restricted to "hunting appropriate" long guns.

I hate to be the bearer of shit news here, but you will never convince the average urbanite that handguns and AR-15s should be available for, essentially, shits and giggles. It's a total non-starter. The overwhelming majority of them are against handgun ownership - hell, even most gun owners are for the assault weapons ban.

The reason that people are doing the whole 2A thing is that unless we make inroads in establishing the importance of gun ownership beyond frivolous sports, gun ownership as we knew it in this country is over, period. The idea of tailoring a "Canadian message" that's accepted by the urban population, where modern military rifles are toys, is a fantasy.

I'm not saying it'll be easy, but we either make this about rights, or we get used to owning nothing but bolt actions. This post is obviously well intentioned, but it's completely off the mark.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

The sport is going to change, there's no doubt. It's changing right in front of us. Singing from the old songbook isn't working. Your favorite firearms orgs aren't even working for you.

I hate to be the bearer of shit news here, but you will never convince the average urbanite that handguns and AR-15s should be available for, essentially, shits and giggles.

Then how do you see it ever being possible? Even under a CPC government, which is far from certain of happening anytime soon, the prohibs aren't coming back.

So...in my opinion, what we should be doing is making firearm ownership among qualified and vetted people acceptable and reasonable across a broad spectrum of Canadians.

Those who believe differently should keep financially supporting a 2A style firearms org. It's their money.

But there needs to be another organization that is speaking to urban Canada. Get them in the fold, and give our sport the political power it needs from across the political spectrum...before it's gone.

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u/throwa37 Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

Singing from the old songbook isn't working.

You're not kidding it isn't. The sports narrative has been the only one that we've been pushing since at least the 1990's, and all it's gotten us is a federal ban on handgun sales and a black rifle ban.

In my opinion, what we should be doing is making firearm ownership among qualified and vetted people acceptable and reasonable.

Generally speaking, it already is, even in the cities - again, so long as you're ok with being restricted to owning hunting rifles. If you want urbanites to recognize semi-auto and handgun ownership as acceptable and reasonable, then you need to give them a better reason to possess deadly weapons than sports. You just have to. If you seriously think you're going to make any progress on the basis of "I like to shoot these for fun", then I'm at a loss as to what to tell you.

EDIT:

Then how do you see it ever being possible?

By persuading people that firearms are actually valuable tools of self-defence, and recognizing that in the law.

Think that sounds hard? I guarantee you it's easier than convincing Torontonians that you should be allowed to have them for fun.

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u/Kombatnt Jun 07 '22

By persuading people that firearms are actually valuable tools of self-defence

Dude, I like guns as much as anyone else here, but this is just never going to happen. Canadians are flooded daily with stories from across the border about the horrors of a nation where everyone is armed to the teeth. There is absolutely no appetite for that kind of culture up here. This is a non-starter.

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u/DarseZ Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

There's no momentum behind 2A style legislation in Canada. It's not some kind of growing movement that just needs more time.

I don't want it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

No there is growing momentum, and if you don't want it then 🤷 we're going to be stuck with cope guns. Sports shooting and hunting has done fuck all to progress gun rights in Canada

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

This is because the firearms community hasn't done that much to reach Canadians that matter.

The average urban Canadian doesn't see themselves as a potential member of the community. We can do much more to change our tone to include them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

I have a reply to you coming up. Watch for it. It's anecdotal but seeing as I live in the GTA I think it holds some weight

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u/throwa37 Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

It's not some kind of growing movement that just needs more time.

We had the federal Cons talking about guns in terms of rights during Harper's tenure.

I want people properly qualified and with mental health screened.

That's fine, these things aren't mutually exclusive. I'm talking about the distinction between ownership purely for sporting purposes, and ownership for defensive use. Relying on the former has failed us completely, and that should be predictable to anyone.

I don't want it.

Alright, have fun with your bolt-actions then, because that's all you're going to be allowed to own.

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u/yummybunnybear Jun 06 '22

Firearm rights organizations, ranges and gun stores need to do a better job advertising on video game websites. That's where you find the future of urban firearm enthusiasts. I can confirm that every single hardcore gamer has expressed a positive view toward firearms to me. Maybe they think it's cool to play with the actual guns they see onscreen. Maybe they can relate to firearm owners because gamers too are often demonized whenever violent incidents happen.

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u/yummybunnybear Jun 06 '22

My family took a teen daughter of a family friend to the range for her first time. She's totally urban in terms of style and music and everything. She picked up the Kriss Vector and said "wooow it's the Fortnite SMG!!!" And she had a blast. I had no clue so I googled it and there is an SMG that looks just like the Vector. That's the future right there.

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u/Spider-King-270 Jun 06 '22

Agreed video games is what got me into guns.

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u/1955FL Jun 06 '22

A governments unwillingness to recognize a right is not proof of its absence.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

The average urbanite? I don't know where you're situated but the people I've talked to are open to gun ownership. Only caveat being is that they don't know much about our laws. I'm talking with men aged 18-24 (minority or white) day in day out and most wish the had a piece on them 24/7. It's the soccer mom Karens, younger college aged women and Twitter users who decide to step out of their house that are so anti-gun. These people usually have their minds made up so even more appeasement isn't going to work. Why are Redditors so fascinated with appeasement when that's the only method being used for over 30 years?

We need to get off our high horse - we're not smart, and our opponents aren't dumb

First of all yeah we have a solid ground to argue from. Not taking ourselves seriously literally won't do us favors lol. Speak for yourself

Optics is what matters

Yup. Sports shooting is a failed angle. Violent crime in Vancouver and Toronto are still going up. Just the other night two or three people got shot up in Toronto. So much for "keeping Canadians safe". Let's call the police and have them set up a crime scene around our dead bodies, not like they're stretched thin enough though!

we need to create a new gun rights organization if the current ones don't represent us

There's already so many. CCFR has the biggest momentum and right now we need one big movement. Gun owners calling for more OICs is enough of a problem. That needs to be fixed first.

adopt and try to incorporate urban language into the gun community

As I've already said, most guys around the 18-24 range are open to gun ownership. Soccer moms, young women, Twitter users are so vehemently anti gun for a variety of reasons.

Openly condemn violence within our communities and disassociate from people who advocate to use guns for violence

No shit? But being "in front" of American stories is the exact reason why we're silent about it. It only gives anti gunners fuel to say "Look! They're defending and associating with Americans! That means they're bad!" Who gives a fuck about them. We're not them, they're not us.

E: Also this is a double edged sword. If we back ourselves into a corner (again), we'd be arguing ourselves away from being able to use guns for self defence. Revolution? Obviously denounce that. Stupid as fuck. Self defence, sustainment and responsibility? That's the type of violence we should be arguing for.

We need to be welcoming and inclusive

We already are. I don't know what you're trying to get at with that but firearms ownership is inherently a male dominated thing, like tuner car culture or tinkering with technology. Lecturing people is unfortunately the corner we've been backed into because of constant pandering and appeasement. I can't believe I have to say this, but welcoming more gun owners who have the same mentality towards gun ownership are who we should be welcoming first and foremost.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Thanks for your reply. If I understand you correctly, the current approach to the issues are the best way to continue forward.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

I like to think so. I see where you're coming from and it's clearly a well thought out approach. I like it but I don't think it can work anymore. The opposition doesn't want to engage us in good faith so I feel like it would be moot to try and extend an olive branch to them. Shifting our narrative to a self defence / property right angle would do us a lot of good.

E: and your message about being inclusive isn't wrong either. But inclusivity just for the sake of it would be artificially beefing up the gun community with people who aren't as invested as me or you. We need to attract the right people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Well it's going to have go down well because decades of "muh sports muh hunting muh bolt is all you need" has again, done fuck all. Anyone outside of the major cities has a neutral or positive stance towards guns.

Other than that well said

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u/throwa37 Jun 06 '22

We need them to understand :

Criminals will always own guns, no matter what

Banning them only takes them out of legal civilian hands

Only then can you maybe propose the self defence thing.

People do understand that, it's just that they don't think that our current excuse of sports shooting justifies the risk of having weapons around. Nearly every single person that I've ever argued with who refused to change their mind, didn't accept that guns are worth the risk just to keep around for sport. I've had people make a lot more concessions when discussing defensive gun use, and linking people to stories that happened here in Canada where people saved their lives, and their families lives, with their guns.

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u/fltlns Jun 06 '22

If I had the money I'd love to start or someone start some sort of program to get minorities and lgbtq+ folk into the shooting sports, bring them out show them a good, inclusive time, free of charge. Point them in the direction of their pal, maybe even pay for it if that's not illegal. Maybe make it a non profit that gives back to indigenous reserves where sustenance hunting is prominent or with water issues. Start it with a high presence mostly in swing ridings in ontario. Grow the sport among other demographics and try to shed the silly idea its all rich white dudes and farmers.

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u/ZsoSo Jun 06 '22

Our favorite firearms organizations aren't serving us well.

the ccfr needs to overhaul and one prominent person needs to go who has only made things worse.

Adopt and reflect the views and language of urban Canada

that makes sense. it explains why the Liberals feel safe doing what they're doing. The people getting firearms are still people that weren't voting Liberal anyway.

We need to normalize it so that it's frendly for everyone.

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u/Armed_Accountant Whoever wants to touch my guns has to touch me first. Jun 06 '22

Tracy? Yeah, she’s a terrible at running the public relations side of things.

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u/Spider-King-270 Jun 06 '22

one prominent person needs to go who has only made things worse.

That would be Tracy right? Because I would agree, she has done good with CPC MPs and the ladies range days however needs to shut up on twitter.

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u/Doctor_Dabmeister Jun 06 '22

I agree with your comment especially about gun advocacy groups not doing much to help our cause and the fact that we should distance ourselves as much as we can from the your average 2A Republican in the US.

Canadian gun owners need to realize that American gun owners have the 2A protecting them. They don't need to worry about what the public thinks of them. Canadian gun owners must also realize that we're doing ourselves a dis-service by associating ourselves with them

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Rural and sporting has been the face of gun ownership in Canada since forever. Sports shooting should be a pillar of the CCFR but it shouldn't be the face, not anymore.

Sports are just sports. No one "needs" it sorry to say. Has the perception of frivolous hobby ever come across your thoughts? These sport shooters can just find another profession 🤷

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

What do you think is more alienating, trying to get into a sport that has such a high skill ceiling, requiring thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to get into? Or an average joe with an AR15 and a shotgun at home used for hunting and self defence? The average uninformed urbanite will go with whatever the hell pop culture tells them. I don't see why we can't be the ones to change public discourse.

I get your point but if the average urbanite just follows along I don't see why we can't make them follow.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

No, LARPers are the ones realizing that sports and hunting optics have gotten us nowhere for the past 30 years. This sporting debate is older than me and look where we are. Politicians don't give a fuck, average people think this is just a hobby for rich people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

And that's the angle still being used today. 2020 OIC and now Bill C21. They're banning airsoft, that's a sport. IPSC, 3 gun, skeet, probably all on the line now because the firearms used for them are on the chopping block.

Do we have to play the sport angle even harder or should there be a narrative shift?

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

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u/throwa37 Jun 06 '22

This argument makes no sense. "Rural and sporting" gun use isn't under threat. Semi-auto centerfires are being targeted right now, precisely because they don't fit the sporting optics that you think are going to save us.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

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u/throwa37 Jun 06 '22

Last I checked, the biggest threat to the sport right now was the measures to ban handgun sales

Maybe. The AWB (including the evergreen/feature ban that's apparently coming as an amendment to this bill) is arguably just as damaging.

The Mini-14 is a far better ambassador rifle than the AR15 will ever be.

Right now at this moment, I agree. Not that I think it makes much of a difference.

The average Canadian sees a black rifle and they immediately want it banned

I understand that, and we need to solve that problem. Hence the idea that we need to sell these rifles as useful, not just sports equipment.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

The possibility of participating in Olympic and similar sporting events could be a huge driver for a groundswell of really productive, inclusive and family-friendly community activity. IMO this is very inviting to a new generation of shooters that may not have even seen themselves taking part in the sport.

I agree that the CCFR's focus on a LARPy demographic, and overall editorial tone....including the public demeanor of certain members...have been a hugely limiting factor to progress.

To think of the average person who might be curious about the sport, doing some internet searches and coming across CGN, CCFR and other sites and being turned off...but there are so many inroads we can make if we change our overall message.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

soundly reject those who keep insisting or advocating that any type of firearm is reasonably usable for self-defense in Canada. It's only lawful under the most direct, severe and unavoidable circumstance. It's so unlikely that a person could legally find themselves in a situation where it could be used that acquiring guns for self-defense is useless. Some people here hate the idea that hunting and sport shooting is basically the end of it. Make sure they're not going to ruin things for everyone else.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Pretty sure it's a troll

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

I don't.

Did you read the thread you're commenting in?

Many have already tried your approach. It's not working at all.

Look at the disaster you find yourself in, that you're helping continue.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

the govt can use arguments and attitudes like yours to make political hay, and every LARPy 2A begging CCFR member just makes it easier!

The commenter in this thread suggests maybe that's the problem and the firearms community should try something different. But you're right back on the denial.

Most Canadians are fine with the OIC. I'm neutral on it and you attack me as if I wrote it myself.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

You want ARs and AR180s banned lol you're ruining it for us

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u/amorphoussoupcake Jun 06 '22

Isn’t this attitude largely why we are in our current position? It seems that hunting is the only tolerable reason to own firearms in this country. Everything else is in the slow process of being totally banned.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Canadians don't want to move in the direction of the US and have those results.

This comment thread suggests that maybe the Canadian firearms community should propose controls that move AWAY from the US model and results.

But suggesting that just gets angry replies and suggestions that we should adopt a 2A and scrap all controls.

It's self-fulfilling!

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

Canadians don't want to move in the direction of the US and have those results

This is a broad, meaningless statement. We're not "moving in the direction of the US", and our laws and regulations don't resemble theirs.

should propose controls that move AWAY from the US model and results.

First of all, why? It doesn't matter what our model or results are, we're compared to the US anyway. We're nothing like them, in terms of gun laws, and here we are implementing a ban off of their mass shootings.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '22

correct. The Canadian govt is not moving in the direction of the US. Many people in here disagree and want Canada to move in the direction of the US with looser controls and self-defense as a legal purpose.

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

Depends on what you mean by "looser controls". Self-defence should 100% be a legal purpose. It already is, actually, they just don't offer it to the common man. But people defend themselves with their firearms anyway - it should be legally recognized that this is a legitimate right.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '22

arming yourself with an weapon isn't legal, but you can use whatever is at hand in the truly rare cases where self-defense is legal. Car, gun, inuit soapstone carving, all good.

2nd amendment style rights have zero hope in Canada. Canadians have no desire for it, it's madness. Anything perceived or real that takes Canada closer to US levels of gun violence is not going to fly.

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

2nd amendment style rights have zero hope in Canada

I mentioned it to another user, but we had the federal government talking about guns in terms of rights when Harper was PM.

"To possess a firearm is a right, and it's a right that comes with responsibilities." — Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney at a news conference in Powassan, Ont., while announcing planned changes to Canada's gun laws, July 23, 2014.

This is what I want more of. I want handguns and semi-autos to remain legal, and sporting purpose arguments will not be sufficient to achieve that. If you have a different goal, like just keeping long guns legal, then cool. But I want more than that.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '22

well, it has no hope of becoming an actual Charter of Rights right, I don't think Blaney was referring to stickhandling an extremely difficult constitutional amendment there. Harpee didn't even try to get the elected senate thru, and most Canadians would support that, and it would just be playing the provincial governments right.

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u/amorphoussoupcake Jun 07 '22

Self fulfilling is: abandoning self defence in the 60’s and losing “short barreled” pistols in the 90’s. Forgetting sport shooting and then losing semi-auto rifles and pistols today. Just what exactly do you want to preserve? Shall we move away from the “US model” and embrace a UK style near total ban?

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Agreed that there's no need for any increased enshrinement of firearms as some sort of de facto protection tool in Canadian law.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Enshrinement is what we need right now, the lack of it is why everything is being banned. You do realize that right?

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

I don't agree. But even if I did agree...how do you manage to get enshrinement as the sport becomes increasingly politically irrelevant? What's your path to changing this?

If we want things to change, we need to help the shooting advocates become more politically relevant. We need a wider political spectrum of interested, active people taking part. Urban communities taking part on a large scale.

The path to making that happen is in my original post.

Otherwise, it's doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

100%. We're being kicked around because we're irrelevant AND there's nothing in the law (i.e. property rights) that keeps us from being messed with. Liberals want to confiscate our legally purchased property from us for no good reason.

Me and you have the same end goal but different ways to go about it. I alluded to this but until people, and especially this subreddit, realize that centre fire semi autos, body armor and other equipment are just as important to civilian gun ownership as IPSC and 3 gun, we will never get anywhere.

Some people here claim to love guns but continue to vote Liberal or NDP. Self sabotaging behavior.

E: and my path to changing it is normalizing self defence and tying it to gun ownership. Fuck sports shooting. It's done absolutely nothing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

centre fire semi autos, body armor and other equipment

IMO your challenge is to convince Mr. and Mrs. Toronto/Calgary/Vancouver/Montreal of this.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Proof of concept exists. I've gotten a sizeable group of people to be convinced about gun ownership, friends, family and former classmates alike. Toronto works. Calgary works. There's a significant group of people who will never want anything to do with guns and I've already mentioned them in my first reply. They're lost causes.

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

Do you care about anything other than bolt-action rifles, over/under shotguns, and five-round magazines? If not, your position makes sense.

If you care about anything beyond those things, your attitude is completely self-defeating.