r/canadaguns Jun 06 '22

Weekly Politics Thread

Please post all your Politics or Ban-related ideas, initiatives, comments, suggestions, news articles, and recommendations in this thread. Unless new information is published in the media, recurring articles related to the gov'ts ***possible*** legislation are to be posted here. These threads will be weekly, until it's necessary for another per-week.

Previous politics threads can be found here. Previous threads can be found here.

We understand that politics is a touchy subject, and at times things can get heated. A reminder of the subreddit rules, when commenting, where subreddit users are expected to abide.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 07 '22

Our favorite firearms organizations aren't serving us well.

They have been happily taking everyone's money to "fight the OIC", etc. and spitting back messaging that makes their supporters happy, and not moving the needle at all.

Here's the thing: Our sport exists at the pleasure of the electorate. Firearms will never be a 'right'. No government will ever implement that. We borrow a lot of tone from our friends to the south, but it's really the worst thing to do, given that they have the 2A.

If we really want to expand the tent, we need to develop a Canadian-style message to reach the people that matter in Canada.

Because of Canada's situation, members of firearms advocacy groups don't matter much. Messaging that appeals to them, but falls flat with everyone else, achieves nothing.

Who DOES matter? The average urbanite in Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, Calgary, Montreal.

We need to shift our messaging to appeal to these folks. Primarily, we need to communicate that they will see friendly/familiar faces at the range on a Saturday afternoon. That the range is for them. The firearms community, in short, needs to be adopted by urbanites.

It will feel a bit like that underground band you always liked, that now has all these new fans who you don't think understand or care about the history. It will push away some people. It will change in unexpected ways. But that's the only path forward.

How do we achieve this? We need to:

-Get off our high horse. We're not 'smart' and opponents to our interests aren't 'stupid'. We all have emotions and bias.

-Media train ourselves. Understand that it's not a 'facts game'...it's a 'perception game'.

-The messaging and tone of our firearms advocacy organizations are are way off the mark. We need to demand more from them...or create a new organization.

-Adopt and reflect the views and language of urban Canada. They're the future.

-Forget talking about a 2A style implementation in Canadian law. It's a waste of resources and will push us further away from the other goals stated here.

-Clearly and openly denounce those who violate firearms laws or threaten violence with firearms. This has to be the topline priority, in bold. Canadians are awash in news of American mass shootings and we need to be in front of those stories...not pretending they don't exist. We need to strongly and overtly differentiate ourselves from the US so that laypeople understand that Canada is a very different place than the US. Casual browsers of all our media need to get an open and inviting tone from our communication.

-Shift the outward-facing narrative from lecturing, adversarial tone to inclusivity and invitation. We don't need to "educate" people....we need to welcome them.

I wish I could half bold, don't mean to yell. But wanted to highlight the key takeaways.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

soundly reject those who keep insisting or advocating that any type of firearm is reasonably usable for self-defense in Canada. It's only lawful under the most direct, severe and unavoidable circumstance. It's so unlikely that a person could legally find themselves in a situation where it could be used that acquiring guns for self-defense is useless. Some people here hate the idea that hunting and sport shooting is basically the end of it. Make sure they're not going to ruin things for everyone else.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Pretty sure it's a troll

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

I don't.

Did you read the thread you're commenting in?

Many have already tried your approach. It's not working at all.

Look at the disaster you find yourself in, that you're helping continue.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

the govt can use arguments and attitudes like yours to make political hay, and every LARPy 2A begging CCFR member just makes it easier!

The commenter in this thread suggests maybe that's the problem and the firearms community should try something different. But you're right back on the denial.

Most Canadians are fine with the OIC. I'm neutral on it and you attack me as if I wrote it myself.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

You want ARs and AR180s banned lol you're ruining it for us

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u/amorphoussoupcake Jun 06 '22

Isn’t this attitude largely why we are in our current position? It seems that hunting is the only tolerable reason to own firearms in this country. Everything else is in the slow process of being totally banned.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Canadians don't want to move in the direction of the US and have those results.

This comment thread suggests that maybe the Canadian firearms community should propose controls that move AWAY from the US model and results.

But suggesting that just gets angry replies and suggestions that we should adopt a 2A and scrap all controls.

It's self-fulfilling!

1

u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

Canadians don't want to move in the direction of the US and have those results

This is a broad, meaningless statement. We're not "moving in the direction of the US", and our laws and regulations don't resemble theirs.

should propose controls that move AWAY from the US model and results.

First of all, why? It doesn't matter what our model or results are, we're compared to the US anyway. We're nothing like them, in terms of gun laws, and here we are implementing a ban off of their mass shootings.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '22

correct. The Canadian govt is not moving in the direction of the US. Many people in here disagree and want Canada to move in the direction of the US with looser controls and self-defense as a legal purpose.

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

Depends on what you mean by "looser controls". Self-defence should 100% be a legal purpose. It already is, actually, they just don't offer it to the common man. But people defend themselves with their firearms anyway - it should be legally recognized that this is a legitimate right.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '22

arming yourself with an weapon isn't legal, but you can use whatever is at hand in the truly rare cases where self-defense is legal. Car, gun, inuit soapstone carving, all good.

2nd amendment style rights have zero hope in Canada. Canadians have no desire for it, it's madness. Anything perceived or real that takes Canada closer to US levels of gun violence is not going to fly.

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

2nd amendment style rights have zero hope in Canada

I mentioned it to another user, but we had the federal government talking about guns in terms of rights when Harper was PM.

"To possess a firearm is a right, and it's a right that comes with responsibilities." — Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney at a news conference in Powassan, Ont., while announcing planned changes to Canada's gun laws, July 23, 2014.

This is what I want more of. I want handguns and semi-autos to remain legal, and sporting purpose arguments will not be sufficient to achieve that. If you have a different goal, like just keeping long guns legal, then cool. But I want more than that.

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u/[deleted] Jun 07 '22

well, it has no hope of becoming an actual Charter of Rights right, I don't think Blaney was referring to stickhandling an extremely difficult constitutional amendment there. Harpee didn't even try to get the elected senate thru, and most Canadians would support that, and it would just be playing the provincial governments right.

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

I don't think Blaney was referring to stickhandling an extremely difficult constitutional amendment there

No, of course not. But it's moving the discourse in the right direction. I'm dreaming big here, because there is no other option.

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u/amorphoussoupcake Jun 07 '22

Self fulfilling is: abandoning self defence in the 60’s and losing “short barreled” pistols in the 90’s. Forgetting sport shooting and then losing semi-auto rifles and pistols today. Just what exactly do you want to preserve? Shall we move away from the “US model” and embrace a UK style near total ban?

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Agreed that there's no need for any increased enshrinement of firearms as some sort of de facto protection tool in Canadian law.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Enshrinement is what we need right now, the lack of it is why everything is being banned. You do realize that right?

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

I don't agree. But even if I did agree...how do you manage to get enshrinement as the sport becomes increasingly politically irrelevant? What's your path to changing this?

If we want things to change, we need to help the shooting advocates become more politically relevant. We need a wider political spectrum of interested, active people taking part. Urban communities taking part on a large scale.

The path to making that happen is in my original post.

Otherwise, it's doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

100%. We're being kicked around because we're irrelevant AND there's nothing in the law (i.e. property rights) that keeps us from being messed with. Liberals want to confiscate our legally purchased property from us for no good reason.

Me and you have the same end goal but different ways to go about it. I alluded to this but until people, and especially this subreddit, realize that centre fire semi autos, body armor and other equipment are just as important to civilian gun ownership as IPSC and 3 gun, we will never get anywhere.

Some people here claim to love guns but continue to vote Liberal or NDP. Self sabotaging behavior.

E: and my path to changing it is normalizing self defence and tying it to gun ownership. Fuck sports shooting. It's done absolutely nothing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22 edited Jun 06 '22

centre fire semi autos, body armor and other equipment

IMO your challenge is to convince Mr. and Mrs. Toronto/Calgary/Vancouver/Montreal of this.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '22

Proof of concept exists. I've gotten a sizeable group of people to be convinced about gun ownership, friends, family and former classmates alike. Toronto works. Calgary works. There's a significant group of people who will never want anything to do with guns and I've already mentioned them in my first reply. They're lost causes.

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u/throwa37 Jun 07 '22

Do you care about anything other than bolt-action rifles, over/under shotguns, and five-round magazines? If not, your position makes sense.

If you care about anything beyond those things, your attitude is completely self-defeating.