Weekly Politics Thread

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[u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

I think the Liberals are now just speedrunning trying to stop the growth of legal gun owners in Canada. We legal gun owners are also quite unfairly stigmatized by many Canadians, especially the ones living in cities like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, and also their surrounding suburbs (basically the people who have the most say in an election). Here are my thoughts on what should be done in order to help change our public perception. u/Kerfaf also posted some good points about winning over urban Canadians and not copying the strategies of 2A activists in the US so please give their comment a read too.

We as individuals should do our best to have good faith conversations about guns with trusted friends and family, especially the anti-guns ones. We should mainly focus on activities like target shooting and hunting. We can also correct any common misconceptions they bring up about firearms in Canada. Sometimes, it may be best to just offer to take your anti-gun friends/family to a range or Crown Land. Giving them 20 minutes to plink with a .22 rifle may do more to change their mind about guns than debating them for 2 hours. We must also have realistic expectations though, one range trip or discussion about guns will not completely change their mind but it will get them thinking that legal gun owners are not as bad as society would like them to believe.

When discussing guns with friends/family, I would avoid politics initially but if it does come up, we shouldn't resort to name calling when it comes to the Liberals or any anti-gun groups. If you have to bring up Trudeau, just call him Trudeau, if you have to bring up the Liberal Party, just say the Liberals. As a general rule, don't use any language US Republicans use to refer to their political opponents. Also on the topic of the US, we should distance ourselves as much as we can from the US gun rights movement, especially the Republican ones. Much of Canada is rightfully disgusted with the Republican party. Associating ourselves with them will only hurt us in the long run. US gun rights mainly focuses on guns as a self-defense tool, I don't think most Canadians are comfortable with that idea yet.

I think Canadians deserve better firearm advocacy groups. I've only had an RPAL for 3 years and live in Ontario so please correct me if I'm wrong on certain things. I think our current advocacy groups have spent too much time preaching to the choir and not enough with public outreach. Have they advertised any sort of public outreach or events before the May 2020 OIC? Even after the OIC, all I remember they did was organize a small protest and they organized the Range Day this past weekend but barely any ranges in my area was participating. Do y'all wonder what they're doing with your donations? Some of the groups could benefit from a change in senior leadership too...

Lastly I want to bring up the Conservative Party. Even as a left-wing Canadian who has voted NDP, I've accepted the fact that I may have to vote CPC if I don't want to see my guns confiscated or "bought back" for pennies. This sucks a lot for me personally since I literally only agree with the CPC on the topic of guns.

The CPC and their voters need to realize that they must become more socially progressive, even more than O'Toole, if they want a chance at forming government in the present day. The CPC may be more socially progressive than they were 15 years ago or compared to US Republicans (the bar is so low when is comes to the Republican party it might as well be on the ground) but I'd say thats not enough for most Canadians. Lets go with the example of abortion which has many Canadians worried due to whats happening in the US. Its not enough for CPC leaders to be pro-choice, they should at the very least prevent their MPs from tabling any bills which may restrict abortion. Anti-abortion groups almost never seem to endorse Liberal or NDP MPs. Being condemned by anti-abortion groups should be seen as a badge of honour.

Even if the CPC does win the next election, there is a high likelihood it will be a minority government. I can't see the Liberals and CPC working together so they would need to form alliances with parties even more left to get a chance at passing anything. I remember Singh saying that he absolutely will not work with Scheer if he won a minority government but didn't say the same about O'Toole.

[u/[deleted] → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

We have been focusing on target shooting and hunting since forever. Me and a handful of other users keep trying to hammer in this point that it doesn't work yet people still keep insisting on it. It's been 30+ years of sports shooting and hunting - give it a rest.

Guns are inherently political so trying to dodge it for the sake of courtesy is beating around the bush. I get your point but it doesn't work.

The CCFR is currently swamped with legal challenges. I wonder where my money is going but until we have another group equivalent to the Firearms Policy Coalition or GOA, the CCFR and NFA are the best options we have.

No offence but the rest of this post seems like thinly veiled cope so you can try and persuade yourself to vote CPC and save your guns. I've said it before I don't understand this fascination to move the CPC centre left just so people can feel "ok" to vote for them. If the thought of checking an X beside the federal CPC MP is enough to give you chills I highly suggest you get off the internet and stop being terminally online.

Also what is this fascination with abortion? It's been done and over with. No one gives a shit about it.

[u/Doctor_Dabmeister → u/[deleted]]

I'm going off from my own personal experience of growing up in the GTA. I have friends/family still living there who have rarely seen a gun in real life unless it was carried by a cop. They're the type of people who get scared when they hear people duck hunting. If I can convince some of them not to fear guns or legal gun owners, I consider that progress. Those are the voters who decide elections so we have to start somewhere.

I support the use of guns for self defence by trained and licensed individuals but good luck convincing any urban voter that in our current time. While its hard to not talk about guns and politics in North America, I still want people to be more comfortable around guns and gun owners before discussing politics.

I ain't coping just yet as I haven't made up my mind for the next election lol, I still got like 2 years at least. Its hard to ask anyone to put a price on their beliefs. I just chose abortion since everyones talking about it recently but I also support drug decriminalization and I'm against minimum sentencing.

If O'Toole is as left as the CPC is willing to go then I'm not confident they'll be able to secure a majority or convince other parties to form a coalition. Who knows, guess we'll see in 2025?

[u/[deleted] → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

I'm going off my own experience as well. Not discounting yours by any means but I've said it in a reply to another user - proof of concept exists. I've convinced a good amount of people about guns in Canada. Many said they want an AR15 or a handgun for their own safety but never knew how to actually go about it. Urban voters like my friends and former classmates exist, they're just lost in all this mainstream media and disinformation.

You're correct about trying to convince more people but if we're talking about others who are scared over duck hunting... let's be real here, is there any progress to be made? Best of luck to you but that's an incredibly steep hill you're going to climb.

Unfortunately for us we have to choose between bad, worse and dogshit political parties. Abortion appears to be a done deal, and I think the only reason we're forced to talk about it again is because of politicians and urbanites trying so hard to import American topics onto our soil.

As for 2025 (or earlier), we'll see. Other users have pointed to the 600k new members that the CPC has now. I'm betting a lot are gun owners, and a lot more are for Pierre.

[u/Doctor_Dabmeister → u/[deleted]]

It's good that you were able to convince people to accept that guns are useful for their personal safety. My plan is to get people I know more comfortable with firearms in general before trying to convince them of anything else. Some people I know seem to be more scared of guns itself rather than being a victim of a mugging or home invasion.

​

You're correct about trying to convince more people but if we're talking about others who are scared over duck hunting... let's be real here, is there any progress to be made? Best of luck to you but that's an incredibly steep hill you're going to climb.

Thanks lol, thankfully most of my friends/family were easier to convince than that

[u/Totally-Not-The-CIA → u/[deleted]]

tough on drugs

Why? It’s a waste of time and effort and money

[u/Totally-Not-The-CIA → u/[deleted]]

I’ve experienced them both and I don’t believe being tough on drugs is the route to go. Legalizing and taxing drugs takes the supply from the black market, money out of organized crimes hands and cleans up the supply, also allowing for proper treatment and less stigmatization

Edit:formatting

[u/Totally-Not-The-CIA → u/[deleted]]

Honestly, I don’t believe it’s the governments job to say what we can and can’t put in our own damn bodies. If someone wants to buy a gram of blow on a Friday night, it’s their business, knowing the risks that goes along with it. If you’re talking heroin, there is a far larger underlying problem we’d need to address Looking at you, pharmaceutical industries and over-prescribing doctors

[u/Totally-Not-The-CIA → u/[deleted]]

No, I definitely believe our social programs need work for those that WANT help. Having spent a lot of time on Hastings and the surrounding areas while living in Vancouver, I’ve seen more then a few who don’t want the help. Legalizing and taxing drugs would help to pay for improved programs and outreach and would help move towards destigmatizing addiction issues, which is essential for those who want help, to get help.

[u/DarseZ → u/[deleted]]

It's interesting that your personal experience, both with drugs and your personal feelings about your own firearms, shapes your views on what is an individual vs. societal issue.

It's a good starting point to understanding why others may not like firearms...perhaps they have experiences or have heard things that hit home to them. No one from the community really does it, but understanding other people's thought processes is essential to make any progress.

[u/DarseZ → u/[deleted]]

couldn't have summed it up better, thanks for your reply

[u/resavr_bot → u/DarseZ]

A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.

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Yes, I do understand that my own situation and experiences do shape my opinions, and I do try to catch when I fall too much into my own world without taking a broader point of view. I totally understand. I love to have debates with people because even though I may have my opinion, I still understand where they come from and I tend to think about it while I work which may in turn alter my opinion some. [Continued...]

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[u/drain-angel → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

Complete lack of electoral & general basis for this entire comment aside, it's funny how you can say that gun owners should give up on issues such as 2A/self-defense/codification and then on abortion, despite by your own admission of all major parties holding a pro-choice position, is something that is completely infallible and that the party should go as far as whipping MPs over bills that weren't going to pass anyways to gain your personal approval (and somehow construe that as political reality).

[u/Doctor_Dabmeister → u/drain-angel]

I'm not asking gun owners in Canada to give up on issues of self-defense. I've posted replies in this post and previous posts where I said that I support the use of guns for self defense.

In my last post, I'm suggesting that gun owners initially avoid discussing self-defense when talking with anti-gun people. We'll have a hard time convincing those people guns should be used for self-defense when they get scared by just the sight of a .22 rifle. To be honest, I didn't want to write an entire essay with my views on firearms in Canada after work on a Monday.

Correct me if I'm wrong but all the other major political parties in Canada already forbid their MPs from tabling bills that restrict abortion. No reason why the CPC can't do that.

I'm no political expert, I'm just a Canadian posting about changes I would like to see. I've had people tell me here before that I should become a single issue voter just so we can all keep our guns. If they're expecting left wing Canadians to sacrifice their beliefs and vote CPC, the CPC should be willing to sacrifice some of their beliefs as well

[u/callofbooty95 → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

We'll have a hard time convincing those people guns should be used for self-defense when they get scared by just the sight of a .22 rifle.

They're not going to be convinced by words and stats regardless. You really don't get it, do you?

[u/Doctor_Dabmeister → u/callofbooty95]

The unfortunate reality is that those people control elections in Canada. Gun ownership for self-defense will be a pipe dream for us as long as urban/suburban Canadian are ignorant when it comes to guns. Have any arguments worked for you when convincing those people that guns should be used for self defense? I'm not asking that to be sarcastic, I want to know so I can try it for myself

[u/callofbooty95 → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

You're making my point for me. Those people run the show. My point is that they're emotional, particularly about left-wing sacred cows with no substance. Trying to convince them is a waste of time. It's much better to simply model responsible gun ownership, buy as many as you can, and stop giving a shit about the opinions of histrionics and morons. Bonus points if you rub it in their faces.

Have any arguments worked for you when convincing those people that guns should be used for self defense?

Yes. I'm in academia in a field that's 99% far left Marxists and almost all women. I ask them if they're serious about protecting themselves from rapists and the increase in "stranger attacks" that the media is going on about. If they say yes, I ask them why the gov't restricts guns and other weapons such as bear spray for self-defense. Then slip in a comment about how Trudeau has groped women etc. If they say no, I ask them why they value the health and safety of pervs and criminals over themselves.

Thing is, what I say can be backed by stats, but that isn't the point. It's ultimately an emotional appeal, and that convinces people far more than stats and logic, especially when I have been told, verbatim, that both of those are racist and colonial.

[u/drain-angel → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

The other guy made some pretty decent points about the self-defence thing so I'm going to address the latter half.

Correct me if I'm wrong but all the other major political parties in Canada already forbid their MPs from tabling bills that restrict abortion. No reason why the CPC can't do that.

Shitting on the representatives of a very solid base of support to make gains to people who already deem their support as wholly conditional on an objective measure of needing to whip the party on social issues that the party already holds the same opinion on is naive at best. Also no, Liberal MPs in the 2000s also did the same (tabling some bills regarding restrictions), and I should mention that under a literal evangelical neocon (Harper) with a majority, abortion wasn't even touched at all. If not touching abortion while in power for that long and holding a pro-choice position isn't sufficient enough then nothing ever will be, given the "pro-life" position is - on a relative scale- globally pro-choice in places like Europe.

I'm no political expert, I'm just a Canadian posting about changes I would like to see. I've had people tell me here before that I should become a single issue voter just so we can all keep our guns. If they're expecting left wing Canadians to sacrifice their beliefs and vote CPC, the CPC should be willing to sacrifice some of their beliefs as well

And this is the opinion presented as political reality. What lost the CPC in 2021 isn't enough keeling over (and this is coming from someone who thought O'Toole deserved a 2nd chance), it's PPC vote splitting. Although the CPC had some marginal vote share gains in the 905/GVA, it costed them dearly in some urban ridings in the Prairies and those very same suburban ridings where PPC vote splitting was enough to not only eliminate all those gains, but also costed about 20-25 ridings on top of that. If just a third of the PPC vote transferred back (polling shows this is the amount of people who defected in 2021), it could've changed the way 2021 happened entirely. The CPC is polling on pre-election highs and that's not factoring for typical pollster house errors, with the PPC down. It's very clear that the strategy on the way forward is to rally and re-mobilize the base for electoral success, and it's working.

Why bother keeling over further in social issues just to risk getting flanked by the PPC again in tight ridings and not being sufficient enough for those who will always hold an unreasonable standard for a position they already agree on?

Personally, I don't care for the culture war shit. But there's political reality backed by data and it contradicts a lot of opinions here who then try to push it as a political necessity for survival.

[u/huntcamp → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

Yes the “Fuck Trudeau” slogan needs to die. Even if I dislike the guy, waving a flag with that or a bumper sticker makes me feel less of a person. Instead of vulgar profanity prove him wrong with legitimacy. That whole movement has really hurt the image of conservatives.

[u/[deleted] → u/huntcamp]

That's why I got a bumper sticker that says "I'm mildly upset with Trudeau", truly the strongest feelings of negativity a Canadian can express

[u/huntcamp → u/[deleted]]

Lmao now that’s a sticker I can support!

[u/callofbooty95 → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

Much of Canada is rightfully disgusted with the Republican party.

The majority of Canadians couldn't name three Republicans. Your comment isn't credible if you're projecting your views onto 40 million people who are largely ignorant of US politics.

[u/Doctor_Dabmeister → u/callofbooty95]

We don't need to know the individual names of people in a political party to be disgusted by their actions. I assume you're not a fan of the Russian government, the Chinese Communist Party, or the North Korean government. Can you name 3 members from those political parties?

[u/callofbooty95 → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

Yes, I can, actually. And not being informed on the basics is a good tip that someone may not know what they're talking about and may not be trustworthy.

[u/Global_Theme864 → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

Well said!

[u/MayorMcCheese92 → u/Doctor_Dabmeister]

Yes very well said 👏