r/canadaguns • u/AutoModerator • Oct 30 '22

Weekly Newbies & FAQ Thread - Post your questions here for PAL/RPAL application, timelines, CFSC/CFSRC, references & requirements, or general new to firearms ownership -type questions

This thread will be used for the "new"-type questions, PAL/RPAL applications, references, CFSC/CFRSC requirements, storage/transport, or other general "new-to-me" firearms ownership questions.

In response to this thread, the community was quite positive for a thread to cover these subjects.

These threads will be stickied for a week, renewing every Sunday @ about 0600 AST. Previous threads here. Take a look, your question may have been answered!

If you have any suggestions for this thread, please feel free to ask here, or send the Mods a message.

Thank you!

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u/CanadaGunsMod Nov 04 '22

Apply for your PAL, be honest. If the RCMP requires additional documentation they will ask for it. You do not have to supply this up front. If you do not have a history of violence, threats, or self-harm, they will often not go further in their questioning.

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u/Brilliant_Gift1917 Nov 04 '22

Thanks. Hopefully they won't have a problem with it, I just worry about the stigma around one of the names of the diagnosis. How much detail should I go into on the cover letter they ask you to write if you tick a box for mental health diagnosis? I was thinking just a simple "These are both from when I was a kid/young teenager, I've recovered from one a long time ago and the other has never affected me, and neither should present any problems with me owning guns" should be enough?

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u/CanadaGunsMod Nov 04 '22

Leave out the bit about it not presenting a problem. Diagnosis is fine, if you want to add detail about how you're managing any current symptoms (therapy, meds, etc) that's up to you. Again, they will send you a letter requesting more info if they need it. Note that a PAL is considered a "shall issue" license. If they deny your application, you can appeal that decision.

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u/Brilliant_Gift1917 Nov 04 '22 edited Nov 04 '22

Leave out the bit about it not presenting a problem.

I wasn't necessarily gonna straight up say "This isn't a problem", more along the lines of "This [diagnosis name] has never made me feel violent or suicidal", but do you think it be better just entirely leaving that out? I just thought it'd be good to clarify as the name of the diagnosis is a broad spectrum and those symptoms can apply to some people, only fortunately where I am on it, those things don't apply to me.

Edit: Also thanks for the info on PAL's being "shall issue", I had always believed they were "may issue". Made me a little less worried now. Was thinking of joining the CCFR, would they be able to help in the case of an appeal?

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u/CanadaGunsMod Nov 04 '22

You don't need to provide more information than you're comfortable with providing, provided it's the truth. There's not really a right or wrong way to do it.

CCFR won't really help with that, no, other than maybe recommending a lawyer if you needed one. /u/varsil?

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u/Brilliant_Gift1917 Nov 05 '22

I'll probably look into a lawyer if I'm rejected, otherwise I don't think I'll need one. I'll just stick to the facts when writing the cover letter, and hope whoever reviews it doesn't hold stereotypes from 15 years ago.

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u/RydNightwish Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

"I'm reluctant to spend thousands on reassessments" but ready to spend thousands on a lawyer over a conflict that hasnt happened but you seem convinced will.

My guy, we had this talk last time you brought this up and people have reiterated my points since then. Be truthful and honest when filling out your forms. If they ask for supporting documents then provide them. That is all you have to do.

Your unnecesarily committed to this mentality of having to be confrontational with the CFP, preparing yourself to claim discrimination, fight this in court and resistant to having to explain things the way required. All before you have seemingly submitted your forms as well. Its your business and nobody here needs to know why but the fact your still building this up in your mind like you have been just doesnt make rational sense if everything is on the level.

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u/Brilliant_Gift1917 Nov 05 '22

I've dealt with serious discrimination before and people in institutions assuming the worst when they see the name, so obviously I'm going to be a bit paranoid that a police institution especially will have the same stereotypes.

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u/RydNightwish Nov 05 '22 edited Nov 05 '22

You have to remember though that the way it is setup that they have to balance risk factors. This doesnt automatically mean its discrimination (firearms ownership is a privilege and NOT a right in Canada currently) if they turn your application down. They will not, especially these days, take your word for it that there is no issue and if satisfactory documentation cannot be provided then yes it will likely be rejected which again doesnt mean you were discriminated against. As well your more than likely going to lose any appeal based on percieved discrimination as it is a very high threshold to prove it against any claim of possible safety risk.

So again if you assume there will be a problem its because you made a paperwork issue into something more because you did not get your way. Lots of people post here with MH questions and have been successful in getting thier PAL. And none have gone on the tangents you are about getting turned down. Simply be honest and upfront thats all it takes.

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u/Brilliant_Gift1917 Nov 06 '22

This doesnt automatically mean its discrimination

I never said that it'd be done out of discrimination, just that I have my very reasonable concerns that people can jump to unreasonable conclusions based on outdated knowledge or understanding of various mental health conditions and classifications. I have a clean criminal record both in Canada and all other countries I've lived in, and I'm hoping the fact that I've never had the need to consult or required referrals to any clinics and whatnot helps my case. Obviously I will provide them whatever information is requested to help my case if they need it.

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u/RydNightwish Nov 06 '22 edited Nov 06 '22

I never said that it'd be done out of discrimination.

I'll probably look into a lawyer if I'm rejected <--- this statement says you have already decided that there can be no other reason acceptable to you.

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unreasonable conclusions based on outdated knowledge or understanding.

This is simply you rewording the excuse you have settled on why you should be made an exception or the justification you want to fight back if things do not work out your way. It is entirely subjective on your part to assume this is how it operates or how it will be. PAL applications are all weighed against a potential risk to public safety. The reality is that most countries have limits for various activities and an ability to participate in them if there is an unjustified risk to other people.

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I'm hoping the fact that I've never had the need to consult or required referrals to any clinics and whatnot helps my case.

You need to understand that they are, by legal requirements going to be asking for documentation if anything raises a red flag, especially where MH issues are concerned. Especially in this political climate. Your word is not going to be good enough, it wasn't for me nor anyone else I know with a PAL. It is all about honesty and public safety. You need to accept this and be willing to put the time and effort needed to satisfy the requirements. They are going to want Canadian expert (doctors etc.) opinions and input if they request any. What the medical community decides in any other nation is of little consequence here. If you are serious about being a responsible gun owner then this is the first and one of the most important ways to demonstrate that. It will look even better for your application if you have this stuff ready to submit the same day rather than wait the weeks it will take for them to contact you about it.

If your application is rejected because you cannot provide sufficient documentation then guess what? It gets rejected at that time and that is the worst thing that will have happened. You are always able to re-apply later on so long as everything was done by the letter to the best of your current means and ability. So once again, and Ill end with these 2 points: you need drop this preconceived mentality you have been building up over weeks/months about how best to fight back (because you will lose, no lawyer or judge will ever side with you when public safety is the counter argument) and just go through the process. Ex: My friend with ADHD was denied a commercial pilots license because of it. They could still get a private/for fun license but the risk to others was deemed too great to allow them in the cockpit of a 737, even though they passed all the courses necessary and were never referred beyond an initial consultation with a psychologist. It is a judgement call on the regulatory body responsible. Whereas on the other hand, they did the work and appointments needed, didn't make assumptions, didn't spend their time bracing for a fight that will never happen and has had an RPAL for as long as me, 10+ years.

Now, I wish you the best of luck as the community needs more members and advocates but you need to let go of this mentality you have let fester. Just do the process and what is meant to be will be.

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u/Brilliant_Gift1917 Nov 06 '22

It will look even better for your application if you have this stuff ready to submit the same day rather than wait the weeks it will take for them to contact you about it.

Hence why I'd asked the question here to begin with - my UK Psychiatrist is reluctant to write/share any documents as he doesn't know if it's his "medical jurisdiction", though if the RCMP request documents and say it's fine for them to release records/info from the UK they may be able to do so.

My issue with getting info from a Canadian doctor is that I have literally never had any medical consultations here, for anything. My only experience with Canadian healthcare has been going to a walk-in for some antibiotics for an infection. Therefore a doctor wouldn't know me so I don't know how they would be able to provide any useful character description to the authorities. The only thing I can think of would be a mental health reassessment with a private clinic which would cost thousands. Therefore I'll just have to hope they'd be willing to accept medical records from the UK or that there's a free timely alternative to a MH reassessment.

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u/Remote_Ad_742 Nov 04 '22

It's one of those things where to me it reads like, someone inviting you somewhere or offering a ride and saying 'Don't worry I'm not gonna kill you'... And it's like... hmm, why did he tell me that? Idk what it is or the RCMP POV, but that's absolutely how it read to me when you said has never made me feel violent or suicidal. Like it's likely to be true, but why would you tell me?

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u/Brilliant_Gift1917 Nov 04 '22

I suppose. I think giving the name for the diagnosis would give better context as to why I'd say it but I'd prefer to keep it private.

The one I've long recovered for was depression, though, so I think it'd be important to note that I never felt suicidal despite having it at one point, as some people to this day seem to associate depression with feeling suicidal.