r/canadaguns • u/[deleted] • Dec 29 '21
Public Transit (Specifically in Ontario) and Firearms Transportation
Hey Friends,
This has been covered before but at a time when the climate was a little cooler, so to speak.
The reason for transporting the firearms in this case would be "to go to the range and then home".
My research dictates that it is not strictly illegal to transport guns via public transit where local laws do not directly prohibit them, but even if my exploration of the topic is hypothetical, I like to vet my findings.
Does anyone know of any law prohibiting firearms transportation on transit?Is there anything specific to Restricted firearms that would prohibit it?I have been unable to find anything explicit on either, but am interested in other interpretations.
The TTC outright bans all firearms transportation.
UBER bans firearms "as far as it is applicable by law"
The GO system has a clause that says a proper authority "may refuse passage or remove from the system" anyone with a firearm (literally handled the same as a drunk person, according to GO policy)
I am aware of the 1993 case in which a very foolish man took a loaded .22 onto the transit system and made a very bad joke to a transit authority and was arrested and charged as a result. I am not talking about this sort of behavior, I am inquiring about a hypothetical situation in which someone behaving normally attempts to transport a restricted or non-restricted firearm locked in a hard sided case with a trigger lock and who comports themselves well.
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
6
u/goopguy11 Dec 29 '21
Like you just want to go to the range? I would maybe call the bus depot or whatever you plan on taking’s hq and ask, but if I were you I’d just try and find an inconspicuous case (just a straight up rectangle, looks like a guitar case) and hope nobody makes a stink, as long as it’s one of the ones who doesn’t have an explicit rule against it, or you could always call the rcmp and ask what the best course of action is
2
Dec 29 '21
Yes, the reason would be to go to the range.
I am indeed planning to call to clarify this with the authorities, but I wanted to ask the community if they had experience too.
5
u/vikhaus Dec 29 '21
Legal or not, given the climate you eluded to, the last thing legal gun owners need is another bad PR story - like a firearm being taken on public transportation. Is it fair? No. But as we’ve all come to learn, legislation for firearms in Canada isn’t fair. Whatever you do, know your actions represent the entire community and aren’t to be taken lightly.
1
Dec 29 '21
Absolutely agree, this is all hypothetical.
One can pretty much guarantee that at some point, somewhere there will be a need though and it's worth figuring out inasmuch as one can figure without an expensive legal test.Additionally, it's worth knowing ones rights!
5
Dec 29 '21
Do they have an x-ray machine for your backpack?
Are you declaring your restricted when you step on the bus?
Is the bus driver able to read your mind and by doing so decipher the contents of your bag?
Food for thought.
You're just a citizen getting on the bus to your destination, not really anyone's business what you're up to.
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u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 29 '21
Is it concealed in a backpack?
3
Dec 29 '21
If it not zipped all the way up is it concealed?
Would it not be concealed in the locked case?
2
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 30 '21
1
Dec 30 '21
Is it really considered concealed if you put it in a locked case with a trigger lock (as per regulations) and then put that in a bag?
One would think it was just sensible behavior for lugging around a now bulky object.2
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 30 '21 edited Dec 30 '21
I see the problem people without cats face, but the transit system can typically write the rules for their vehicles.
Depends on the judge.
Edit: cars
1
Dec 30 '21
My question wasn't facetious, I am actually asking if it has been ruled that a gun case in a bag is concealed versus a gun case in the hand.
We have agreed that a gun case does not always obviously contain a gun already.
In Felewka it was ruled it was concealed because it was not in a case but instead in a jacket, so I am wondering about in a case (as per restricted transport laws) in a bag.2
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 30 '21
The really weird part is the recommendation in the law is that the gun case be locked in the trunk, but not a requirement. i.e. pickup truck or motorcycle
1
Dec 30 '21
It's like... Is the gun not already "concealed" in a case in the optical sense?
Felewka suggests that the law believes gun cases are self-evident (or should be) but we know the reality is that they are pretty darn nondescript...Is concealement about intent or optics? Pretty ill-defined in our laws IMO.
1
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 30 '21
Our laws are ill conceived knee-jerk reactions to a vocal minority.
2
u/throwa37 Dec 30 '21
If I was stuck taking the bus, I'd just carry the case openly. It's not like urban bus users are likely to recognize a handgun case.
4
u/GenuineSteak Dec 29 '21
Im pretty sure translink has a company policy against firearms but its not actual law so the most they can do it kick you off. Or call the cops on you for trespassing if you refuse to leave.
2
Dec 29 '21
Indeed, but what with them shooting people for being gunsmiths and all, not sure if having the cops called is very safe option.
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u/GenuineSteak Dec 29 '21
Ive rode the bus with a case a few times and never had a problem. Most people never even think its a gun. And the people that do are other gun owners so they dont care. Just make sure the case doesnt say like "firearms" on it.
2
u/cattabliss bc Dec 29 '21
Translink has a dedicated police force though... They hang out often around bus and rail exchanges, and most cops would likely recognize a gun case for what it is unless you have it in a non traditional case.
2
u/stealthy_1 Dec 29 '21
Police don’t generally have a reason to go searching your stuff unless you’re being super creepy about it.
Follow the rules, go about your business, and nobody will bat an eye.
I would also recommend against using non-traditional cases as it could be construed as concealing, but I will defer to Ian Runkle’s video on that.
It’s just the mentality: police on patrol don’t go around assuming someone’s suitcase they’re rolling around with to be an explosive. Behaviour and demeanour all plays into it. If they stop you and ask where you’re going, just be polite about it, go about your business.
1
Dec 30 '21
Agreed on the points about unreasonable searches and weird cases.
The thing here is 'unreasonable' searches. If the transit system doesn't strictly forbid transporting a firearm, but states a proper authority may eject you for carrying one, is it all that unreasonable a search if the transit authority comes by and, seeing the case, elects to search you or eject you and call the cops (who will likely then want to search you)?
1
u/stealthy_1 Dec 30 '21
Carrying seems like a catch all term here. It’s already illegal to “carry” one, but you’re also transporting it legally.
I think the idea is that the authority to do so is reserved for the operator. I’ve seen so many people who eat or drink on a bus and nobody bats an eye. Honestly I don’t think people will care at all if you use a properly secured case, probably not your $15 “scoped rife case” from cabelas but a proper locking secured case.
4
u/MacintoshEddie Dec 29 '21 edited Dec 29 '21
I can't say I can remember any cases where a company has outright said they would allow it, only times where they either forbid it or stay quiet on it.
That said there have been times I've seen people with hard cases on the bus. I dunno what the contents are, except for the guy who opened his case to show his guitar to his friend.
Now, I dunno how big a fuss it would cause if someone did something like text Transit Watch or the police "There's a guy on the bus with a big plastic case I think it might have a gun." I think a lot of that would depend on if it gets dispatched as "man with a gun" or "concerned citizen".
As we all know, just because something is legal doesn't mean you're going to be able to do it without punishment.
Now, if you have a breakdown or folded or dismantled rifle in your backpack and you're not being a butthead, chances are you could ride the bus every day and not be punished, but if you ever get caught even if it was something like a crackhead stabbed someone and you yelled at him, you might be in a lot of trouble or just face a lifetime transit ban all the way up to a "weapons dangerous" charge and a prohibition order.
I can't remember if /u/varsil has done a video on firearms on public transportation or not. I suspect his advice might boil down to "Get a ride with a friend and avoid the potential issues".
2
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 29 '21
varsil has done a video on firearms on public transportation or not
I only remember Felawka, and he was charged with concealed carry due to opening his mouth.
Most lawyers agree, keep yer trap shut.
1
Dec 30 '21
Indeed, the mouth would not be an issue here. We are assuming that the carrier is comporting themselves well, has a positive demeanor and is observing the legal requirements.
Agreed, a ride is always the best option, but let's assume that transit is the option left for whatever reason.
2
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 30 '21
TTC property is private property, they make the rules.
1
Dec 30 '21
Yes, but there are transit systems outside the TTC and we aren't ONLY restricted to discussing Ontario here, I am wondering about the federal level too.
I haven't read anything about it being illegal to take on public transit at a federal level (understanding that local bylaws can be different), I am looking to confirm each of these scenarios at each level.
2
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 30 '21
Ok, but afaik there is no federal public transit except for maybe, maybe, via rail.
Each transit system will have its own rules.
Are you breaking a federal law? I don't think you are, but that's an opinion.
2
Dec 30 '21
If opinions are the best I can get, I am grateful for them. I am also planning to call the CFO and ask these questions after collating as much data as I can. Thank you for dutifully replying to every post, I have karma'd you on each ;)
1
Dec 30 '21
To further qualify what I am asking , for I am worried I am not being clear:
I am wondering if it is illegal at the federal and provincial levels to transport a gun on public transit, be that gun restricted or non-restricted, for the purpose of going to and from a Range and Home.Info about specific localities would be an interesting bonus, as with the TTC.
3
u/Ustauk Dec 29 '21
It could get expensive, but a better option may be using a gun-friendly taxi service. Some cabs in Edmonton are run by sole propietors, who may be more amenable to a taxi company that has a policy against transporting firearms. If you have a license, you may also want to consider renting a vehicle; some short term rental options like CommAuto in Edmonton can be quite affordable.
2
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u/RelativeFox1 Dec 29 '21
In Edmonton it’s a city bylaws that prohibits it, another reason I won’t give up my vehicle.
2
u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Dec 29 '21
onto the transit system and made a very bad joke to a transit authority and was arrested
R. v. Felawka
I don't think it was loaded, charged with concealed carry, wrapped in some clothing.
1
-9
Dec 29 '21
[deleted]
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Dec 29 '21 edited Dec 29 '21
I'm familiar with said case. Guy was an idiot, I suspect things would have gone differently if he'd had some sense. If you read my post all the way to the bottom, I even referenced it.
5
u/AresV92 Dec 29 '21
I've done it before when I was in college. I lived in the city and didn't have a car. I never even considered it might be an issue. I figure if I can fly on a plane with firearms I should be ok on the stupid bus. Most people on busses are just trying to avoid eye contact including the driver lol. I just had it unloaded locked and in a hard case. Though I do live in an area with more gun owners than say Toronto or Montreal so people here are probably less associating guns with gangs and more with wholesome hunters. Here if people see you walking down the side of the road with a shotgun slung over your shoulder they wave, they don't call the police.
-11
Dec 29 '21
[deleted]
2
u/AresV92 Dec 29 '21
Never conceal a weapon in Canada. Its illegal. If you want to be inconspicuous just get one of those rectangular pelican or plano hard cases.
2
u/Lopsided_Ad3516 Dec 29 '21
Think he meant something like the rectangular hard plastic cases. I have one for my telecaster. Suppose it might be able to fit a rifle, though the shaping inside the case might not work for that.
1
u/AresV92 Dec 29 '21
Its more if the courts can prove you were trying to mislead someone. If its a case designed for guitars it could be taken that way. If its a general use case like a pelican or if its specifically designed for guns, but just has a rectangular shape its safer. You're technically safest legally if the case is "clearly identified as containing a weapon". Whatever that means is up to you. I personally just use the plano hard cases because they are cheap, readily available and durable enough for my ammo and gun transport needs. Also I like taking two guns with me to the hunting site or range so that if one goes down I don't have to go all the way home or in case I want to lend a gun to a (licenced) friend.
1
u/MarijuanaMamba Dec 29 '21
No rules against it in Ottawa (OC Transpo).
1
u/throwa37 Dec 30 '21
Amalgamating a shitload of rural communities has made Ottawa a much more tolerant place for firearms than it gets credit for.
1
u/Secret--Sam Mar 30 '22 edited Mar 30 '22
What about transporting ammunition (only) in a hard locked case, in a backpack etc. on TTC public transit...same thing?
1
u/Dear_Contribution427 Jun 21 '22
I am sure if a person were to carry a nondescript plastic case onto public transit, nobody would complain. Nobody needs to know the contents, it's nobody's business. Just don't cause a scene and every honest firearm owner in the country won't need to suffer your consequences. Please and thank you.
M.
16
u/outline8668 Dec 29 '21
It is not illegal. It may be against that particular transport company's policy but that's company policy not law.