Recurring Canadaguns Politics and Debate Thread

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[u/Lumindan]

I said this in the thread about it on this sub, no one should be against this, our current laws for self defense punish the victims so hard it's not even funny.

[u/Straight-Yam-4151 → u/Lumindan]

There are literally people on here against it because they’re so online-brainwashed they genuinely cannot process that Conservatives represent their interests better than the Liberals do.

“But Harper didn’t do enough.” “But this is too little, too late.” “Why didn’t he run on this?”

Etc. etc.

The Conservatives could give them everything they ever wanted and it still would not be enough.

If the Liberals put out a bill banning puppies, these people would instantly start with, “PP wants to ban puppies too, so it doesn’t matter,” or “PP wants to ban puppies and cats too.”

It’s a team sport to them now.

[u/gamercast1337 → u/Straight-Yam-4151]

Or my favorite "erm current laws are good" like you dont get dragged over the fucking coals for defending yourself and your family  losing your job, money etc even if you win, your life is over. Just how the government wants it. 

[u/floydsmoot → u/gamercast1337]

>Just how the government wants it

but the process IS the punishment for having the audacity to defend yourself. That's the government's job.

[u/gamercast1337 → u/floydsmoot]

The government doesnt care if you are guilty or innocent, it just wants your life ruined. 

 A ruined life is easier to control is their thought process. And throw in some Satanic reasoning shit too since we know how the western world works now.

[u/Goliad1990 → u/gamercast1337]

Or my favorite "erm current laws are good" like you dont get dragged over the fucking coals

They're right. People aren't getting "dragged over the coals" because the law is bad, it's because they're being prematurely charged by the cops before they even launch an investigation.

That's not a problem you can fix by clarifying the law. As long as law enforcement has a "let the court sort it out" attitude, there is literally no self-defence law law you could write that would solve the problem.

[u/Lumindan → u/Goliad1990]

But you're missing the fact that the law absolutely influences how police and the crown handle self-defence cases.

Right now, Canada’s self-defence provisions under Criminal Code of Canada section 34 are intentionally broad and rely on a long list of “reasonableness” factors. Because the threshold is vague, police often default to laying charges and letting the courts decide. That’s exactly why people get dragged through the system even when the Crown eventually drops the case.

If there was more clarity, they wouldn't be able to do it.

When the law is clear and prescriptive, officers have stronger guidance on when charges are appropriate vs when the law is vague and discretionary, officers default to “fuck it, charge them and let the courts figure it out.”

That's not a problem you can fix by clarifying the law. As long as law enforcement has a "let the court sort it out" attitude, there is literally no self-defence law law you could write that would solve the problem.

This statement contradicts itself. If the problem is that police are laying charges too easily, then raising the legal clarity and threshold for charging in legitimate self-defence cases is exactly how you reduce that behaviour no?

it's not going to be perfect but it's certainly a better step towards protecting Canadians.

[u/floydsmoot → u/Goliad1990]

>prematurely charged by the cops before they even launch an investigation.

saw a post by a former OPP that said they were told in police college to charge everybody and let the courts sort it out

[u/gamercast1337 → u/Goliad1990]

Yes, the law is vague thats why its so easy to drag people through the coals on it. Cleaning it up and making it more difficult to do so IS a good thing. 

[u/floydsmoot → u/Lumindan]

But, but, Noah Weisbord, an associate professor of law at McGill University who has written about self-defence laws in Canada and the U.S., said the current Canadian law is "extremely permissive."

so it has to be true /S

[u/Goliad1990 → u/Lumindan]

our current laws for self defense punish the victims so hard it's not even funny.

The laws don't, the legal system itself does.

Defensive shooters almost always win in court, or have their charges dropped, because the law already explicitly permits you to defend yourself. Whats fucking people over is police laying charges blindly, and that's a whole separate issue that you can't fix by just writing a castle doctrine. Regardless of how good the laws are, you still have to show up in court if bullshit charges are laid, and that's what's costing people.

[u/Lumindan → u/Goliad1990]

You’re identifying a real problem, but drawing the wrong conclusion from it imo

To be clear, Winning after months or years of investigation, legal bills, and potentially losing your job isn’t exactly a great time for anyone and full on, it's a huge flaw in our systems.

The reason charges get laid so often is because the current self-defence law is extremely vague. Section 34 of the Criminal Code basically boils down to whether force was reasonable in the circumstances which is something police and prosecutors interpret after the fact. When the standard is that so vague, officers tend to lay charges and let the courts sort it out; which fucks the end user super bad (especially if they're just defending their families or themselves from an intruder).

An amendment to the law (IE: The stand on guard act) would allow for more clarity and also add protections for Canadians in these situations which in itself would help alter the legal system. Can't lay charges as easily if people are already in the clear.

[u/Goliad1990 → u/Lumindan]

The reason charges get laid so often is because the current self-defence law is extremely vague.

It can't be that vague if defensive shooters are always exonerated, and at this point there's so much precedent and case law accumulated over the years that lack of clarity can't be a valid excuse.

I'm not opposed to this move by the Cons, obviously, but it also won't fix shit.

[u/Lumindan → u/Goliad1990]

It can't be that vague if defensive shooters are always exonerated, and at this point there's so much precedent and case law accumulated over the years that lack of clarity can't be a valid excuse.

The problem isn't whether they are found guilty or not in the end, the entire point of the bill is to cut through the legal murkyness which would cut down on people having their lives ruined after they defend their families / property. You gotta start somewhere.

Presumes Reasonableness. Force used to stop a home invader who poses a threat will be deemed reasonable; there will be no more second-guessing after the fact. Ends Legal Limbo. Canadians defending themselves should not spend years in court while criminals walk free. This law gives clarity to citizens, police and prosecutors.

I think it's a good move in the right direction for Canadians. It's better than what we have now that's for sure. It's not a long read. I don't think it'll survive the house but it's better than nothing.