Weekly Politics Thread

[u/AutoModerator]

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[u/drain-angel]

Why is the discussion around electoralism in firearm politics always revolves on the idea that the CPC should alienate a chunk of their base to satiate non-committal voters on topics that they already objectively are identical to the other parties (but apparently not enough somehow), especially regarding social issues?

Why isn't it the other way around? Why can't the discussion be on getting the Libs/NDP to stop being at our throats? For all these "liberal" gun owners who think they're such a massive influential voting bloc here, why hasn't any progress been made on that front? Especially given that it wasn't too long ago that the NDP had an empowered rural caucus and allowed dissent, such as the LGR vote.

Also credit where credits due, the GPC is about to enact pro-firearm policies but we don't see people running around every other week saying that the GPC needs to alienate their environmentalist base to woo voters for firearm policy.

[u/[deleted] → u/drain-angel]

Can't wait for the replies on this one

[u/drain-angel → u/[deleted]]

I mean I was thinking about it after I saw your comment last night, but it's also a thing that just crops up here enough to be annoying because clearly people want to repeat the same take ad nauseum despite it being explained very well why it's a poor take and it's clear it just stems from more personal belief than hard data.

[u/[deleted] → u/drain-angel]

The way I see it, being a liberal voter and a gun owner are mutually incompatible** You see liberal gun owners parading around the fact that they're liberal on here to prove that they exist and that they're not like the others, for whatever that's worth (i.e. worthless). Like, what's the point? For lack of a better term it's self-sabotaging thinking and behavior. We're not fortunate enough to exist in a country where gun rights are relatively untouched by either side of the aisle. One side is actively trying to take away, the other side is neutral at worst or proactive at best. Idk what's so hard to understand about that.

I'm betting that the majority of them don't have any serious kit or firearms; they're missing the intent. I've said it before but guns and gun ownership shouldn't be treated like a casual hobby. Unfortunately, I think that liberal gun owners treat it as just a hobby - they couldn't care if their stuff gets forcefully confiscated. They have no skin in the game lol.

E: and as for the conversation rarely shifting to the Libs or NDP easing the anti-gun rhetoric, I think it's because those parties know their main voting demographics don't like guns. Those parties won't change. "Liberal" gun owners know that too. They can jump ship whenever

[u/April_Ethereal → u/[deleted]]

This may be the "politics" thread, but your attitude is just outright divisive, and generally shitty towards people who don't view / treat firearms ownership the same way you do.

Minimizing (or eventually halting) the encroachment of ever stricter (and terminally ineffective) firearms policy in this country requires collective action. That means all of us working together against the torrent of misinformation propagated by the current government and special interest groups; advocating for more transparency in policy making and better data to work with.

What we definitely do not need is people going puritanical about firearms ownership and deriding people categorically over bullshit like "being too much of a casual". It accomplishes nothing and just further divides people who would otherwise have common interest. That's actual self-sabotaging behavior.

[u/[deleted] → u/April_Ethereal]

It's not divisive. Calling out the bullshit that the gun community has and getting people to correct their behavior is my attempt in trying to fix this "eh, at least I have mine" attitude going on. Not seeing firearms as important or significant, or not seeing it as a serious lifestyle is again the biggest reason why we're in the suck. Gun "owners" don't take themselves seriously? Guess what, the opposition won't either.

How is this community supposed to work together when people in this very thread are pro-OIC, pro gun restriction and claiming that guns are nothing more than a hobby? Not to mention the self sabotaging behavior that users here seem to do, all under the guise of "I have other political beliefs to you know!". I've said it before, it's fine, but don't go on to pretend that you're not actively working against the rest of us.

Hate to say it but the line has already been drawn in the sand. I've said it in my original comment to drain angel, one side is actively taking away, the other is neutral at worst and proactive at best. Voting liberal (or NDP for that matter) is actively working against gun ownership in Canada. If you don't take guns seriously and if you vote for those two parties currently, just hand in your shit. Just because I share a common interest with a liberal gun owner doesn't mean we both take the lifestyle equally serious. It doesn't work like that.

Just because you happen to own a shotgun doesn't mean you're as serious as I am, or other users, about guns. Being critical of temporary gun owners isn't self sabotaging, it's weeding out the people that aren't do anything positive for gun culture. In just under 6 years we've seen so much anti gun rhetoric, anti gun legislation and an unnecessary and useless gun ban. What is it going to take to realize that just owning a gun won't cut it anymore?

Again I'm going to say this - one side is trying to take away guns, the other is neutral at worst and proactive at best. Why people try to cope with this and say "not all Liberals!" is inane.

[u/April_Ethereal → u/[deleted]]

It's not divisive.

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If you don't take guns seriously and if you vote for those two parties currently, just hand in your shit.

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Being critical of temporary gun owners isn't self sabotaging, it's weeding out the people that aren't do anything positive for gun culture.

Is your brain broken dude? Rather than everyone pulling together you want to purge anyone who doesn't treat firearms ownership as a "serious lifestyle", sacrosanct above all "other political beliefs" or life priorities. This is literally puritanical.

Your plan is to reduce the number of firearms owners by shitting on people who aren't "as serious" as you, take this newly minted smaller group of super serious hardcore badasses, and what, vote harder?

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Important part above, I just want to comment on a reoccurring theme separately.

getting people to correct their behavior

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not seeing it as a serious lifestyle is again the biggest reason why we're in the suck

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Just because you happen to own a shotgun doesn't mean you're as serious as I am

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Just because I share a common interest with a liberal gun owner doesn't mean we both take the lifestyle equally serious

You're not asking people to change a behavior, you're demanding people re-arrange their lives and personal identity around firearms ownership. You have majorly conflated your personal identity with firearms (ownership, use, online culture) to the point that you consider it a lifestyle. I don't mean that as a dig at you, but it's not reasonable to expect that of everyone else, nor is there anything wrong with hobbyist firearms ownership (the majority of non-hunting firearms owners anyway).

[u/[deleted] → u/April_Ethereal]

This is what I don't understand. Are you arguing that sheer numbers is going to do the gun community any favors, when people in this same community think the OIC is a good thing? I just stated that if people have other priorities they need to consider instead of guns, that is fine. I'm not going to argue with them about it. What I'm arguing over is the fact that people think they can vote the way they vote and expect gun rights to get better. There clearly are two parties that don't give a shit about gun ownership. What use is 2.5 million gun owners in Canada when 1 million of them vote liberal or NDP anyways? We should all sing kumbaya and be happy with 2.5 million people in the community when those 1 million just don't care?

I keep sounding like a broken record - if you have other things you want to vote for, fine. But again, treating firearms as a hobby is literally the reason why we're being attacked non stop. What is so hard to comprehend about that?

E: voting and activism are the only two options that the gun community has to change things for the better. If people are fine with having an OIC and increased gun control, what are they actually here for? People have lost tens of thousands of dollars because of this dogshit government. If that's not something to be angry / serious about, I don't know what to tell you

[u/April_Ethereal → u/[deleted]]

What use is 2.5 million gun owners in Canada when 1 million of them vote liberal or NDP anyways? We should all sing kumbaya and be happy with 2.5 million people in the community when those 1 million just don't care?

To collectively advocate for better policy from all parties, and to have that advocacy coming from people outside the capture of a single party. Even looking at it cynically from a purely electoral (opposed to results) oriented standpoint, there's no reason for either the LPC or NDP to budge on their policy if it won't win them any votes until they outdo the CPC. They would be better off (and have been) trading voters with the reverse inclination instead.

​

But again, treating firearms as a hobby is literally the reason why we're being attacked non stop. What is so hard to comprehend about that?

I don't see a reasonable basis for this. Are you blaming the CPC's repeated losses on a (unknown) number of firearms owners you believe aren't voting for them, and that the outcome of these elections would be different if they had (been single issue voters)?

Being charitable, I'm going to assume that you don't think this mystery number of people would have changed the outcome of the last 3 federal elections outright, but instead think that a consolidated voting block would be too powerful for (any) party to continually upset. This idea is predicated on that mystery number being enormous, and still encounters the issue mentioned in the first section of this comment.

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when people in this same community think the OIC is a good thing? ... If people are fine with having an OIC and increased gun control, what are they actually here for?

I don't / can't read every thread or comment on this sub, but where are these pro-OIC people you keep talking about? This is anecdotal, but I've literally never seen a comment on this sub supporting the (May 1st 2020) OIC. I think it's a mistake to assume that's a popular position based on a (few?) comment(s) regardless.

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People have lost tens of thousands of dollars because of this dogshit government. If that's not something to be angry / serious about, I don't know what to tell you

I think you have every right to be angry, I'm angry too. I don't enjoy representatives from the government as well as government sponsored ads objectively lying to the public about my property / hobby and the (in)effectiveness of proposed polices.

I think your anger is misdirected.

It's easy to feel helpless, and subconsciously turn your anger and focus to something you feel you can influence / change. If there's one thing you take away from this discussion let it be this:

Alienating people who aren't "as serious" as you isn't kicking out dead weight, it's throwing people overboard who's fingers were in holes that will sink your ship.

[u/[deleted] → u/April_Ethereal]

Collectively advocating for gun reform from within the NDP and Liberal parties seems to have gone nowhere. I'm sure there are MPs within those parties that disagree. I can't say for certain because I'm not a politician, but if those MPs exist there's too little of them to make a difference.

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there's no reason for either NDP or Liberals to budge on their policy if it won't win them any votes until they outdo the CPC

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Which is what I was trying to get at. It's not in either party's best interests to flip flop on firearms because the majority of their voter base isn't open to that subject to begin with. I've interacted with users who claim to be converting their no-guns friends to has-guns friends (who are all on the left), but again, appears as though it's too little too late. If they're successful in changing the average Liberal or NDP voter's stance on firearms ownership, I'm all for it. However, the reality right now is that those average voters either don't care or are anti-gun. That is what we have to deal with.

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I don't see a reasonable basis for this - are you blaming the CPC's repeated loss on an unknown number of firearms owners you believe aren't voting for them?

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I didn't mention it but I should have. Fudd mentality, regardless of your political leaning, is another reason why the community is backed into a corner right now. I've said it before, if guns are perceived by the general public as a frivolous hobby that has no significance, why can't we just do away with them? Through this POV, it's fundamentally the same as collecting rare cars or expensive art. Who gives a shit. These things we collect and enjoy just so happen to be "dangerous to public safety". So, all the more incentive to forcefully confiscate from people who are doing no wrong while looking good for the press.

Other users have stated in previous threads that guns were a non-issue to a lot of Canadians, allegedly not even coming up in the top 10 list for voters last year or in 2019. I'm not delusional to think that we have enough numbers to drastically affect every election, which brings me to another point. We don't have enough people who are on the same page. It's the Liberals and NDP who appeal to anti gun voters and shove this issue into everything to get votes. These parties wouldn't be doing what they do if they knew that their voter base can't be convinced by overly emotional arguments, and especially wouldn't touch guns if they knew a significant amount of their base stood firm and cared about their property.

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I can't read every comment on this subreddit ... but where are these pro-OIC people you've been referring to?

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I wish I knew how to link specific comments, but I don't. I'm not making this up and you're going to have to take my word on this one. In previous threads, and this one, there have been a handful of users who are pro OIC because they think "low recoil, semi automatic carbines" should be taken away from Canadians. This comment I'm quoting happened just a few days ago.

Me and you are ultimately both on the same page. I'm frustrated with this complacency and paradoxical behavior coming from both sides of the aisle. I just don't think that accepting anyone and everyone into the community, just because they own a couple shotties and a bolt rifle, means that they're going to help us.