Can it be done? Can we get new decent subcompact PCC models?

[u/Sad-Stop-2401]

Is it possible .... to build a Canada legal TP-9 like errr PCC from first principle? Just throwing a basic idea in the wind. Not by a lay person but by a legal business licensed to make firearms.

We know Glock and its internal parts are dime a dozen (not literally but you get my drift!).

Barrel assembly, trigger/ trigger groups, recoil springs, buffers, springs, locking block and even entire upper slide.

And actual receiver is essentially polymer frame. I mean there are such companies like Polymer 80 that make such 100% polymer frames. The frame as such is basically cavity and holes to support these components. So.... why not have that cavity intact and just add a butt stock (as in the mold) for what essentially is a handgun design into a .... sub compact carbine not matching anything on market externally. the slide can still "slide" on rails, heck may be cover by a shroud.

Rest everything is essentially... in same place as a glock.

Heck, while we are at it, we can have a unique mag/magwell design (just some mechanical incompatiability with general glock mag well) and have mags with just 5 rounds. Like add slots/notch to avoid any other mag from fitting in.

And here is the kicker part. Since this is going to be a Canada only madness and not in massive numbers, so make it using additive manufacturing process which does not require committing to make molds etc. The equipment are flexible and reuseable. Just slow. But then Canada is a small market. You can actually do a "build on order" model. There are fibres that can hold for pretty decent. Like PEEK. Heck... offer a service that if you crack and break your frame, they can send you a new frame if you return old broken/cracked frame. I mean there are such things like FGC-9. Those guys are using much much worse fibres (PLA etc) and materials. You can use better fibres and structural material. Like PEEK, Nylon+CF+GF... the list is endless... to actually make the frame as strong as polymer frames from Glock.

And when and if Horsie or Lie-be-reals ban it. Just make cosmetic changes to the damn design while keeping the cavity intact.

I believe... you can even have specialized AI models that can actually let you to customize the asthetics / "looks" of firearm, without actually messing up the structural integrity of the frame.

Let horsie ban it... send the new model for classification and validation the next day and launch it once it is done. Or sent 10. And launch as you need. One by one. May be next day to horsie ban.

TL;DR:

1. Make your PCC models recievers a moving target for Horsie to ban.
2. Reuse ALL of Glock internals. Basically put Glock in a PCC body.
3. Use additive manufacturing methods and produce polymer frame on-demand to minimize capital tie up.
4. Supply mags with 5 shots only. That will bypass the new design ban. Make mags/mag-well slightly incompatible with existing models.

Can it even work? u/SpectreBallistics ?

PS: Apologies if I made a very stupid lay-person mistake.

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[u/milanskiv]

“Make your PCC models receivers a moving target to ban” they can/do also ban variants so no, you cannot do what you are proposing to do.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/milanskiv]

Variant is something that uses design from existing firearm. This is essentially a brand new frame design each time they ban. You can even add useless cavities to confuse them.

Two PCCs will not even look one bit similar.

[u/milanskiv → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

What an optimistic take. I like you. Now look at historically what they have deemed a variant.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/milanskiv]

Even if I take the most extreme position, are they going to ban a handgun because it is now in PCC? Glock 17 or 19 is not a banned gun in canada btw. And it is owned by quite a few folks, making such ban in retrospect much harder.

The worst can be claimed is that PCC is a variant of Glock. Not a variant of banned PCC.

[u/Remarkable_Vanilla34 → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

Buddy they banned a mossberg blinker in a plastic shell that looked like an m16, but didn't ban the original action even those they both were identical.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/Remarkable_Vanilla34]

No problem. Just launch a new model with new name. Let them catch up to cat and mouse game. Let them add a new OIC each time. Heck, start a "re-cycling" service in which you take prohib old models and put their parts in brand new model exterior for a small fee. Each time produce a totally new looking design with old innards.

Remember, Canada's FRT is reactive. Not proactive.

PS: I can go totally extreme with an AI assisted customization that no two guns look same. Fuck it, give it a brand new model for each god damn purchase. Call it.... "Bespoke". Each customer gets a bespoke model.

Let us see how many models Lie-be-real government can ban and how many OICs they will need for it.

[u/Remarkable_Vanilla34 → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

Dude that's been going on for 6 years lol its nit a viable business model

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/Remarkable_Vanilla34]

I do not see additive manufacturing and repurposing being used. With normal molding etc, it requires a lot of initial commitment in capital on per model basis. Which is what makes it unviable. Trade it for less speed, and, may be (not sure) it might work.

[u/ThatBigFuckoffTree → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

Tell that to the guys that deemed the Derya MK12 an AR-15 variant. Or a GSG 16 an MP5 variant

[u/Sad_Buy_9866]

Sorta sounds like IRG’s ATF SBR9 plan. Rip.

Two big blockers:

• FRTs take time, and require back and forth for approval. Though unsure if one is needed for domestically produced firearms. And variants of this design could be deemed prohib’d, meaning spin offs are a no.
  
• Would need a one-off mag design for sub 5 rds to meet C21’s cutoff date for semi’s. Do-able but capital intensive.. maybe a 3rd party adapter could unblock common glock mags.

There was something in Armalytics about a restricted 3d printed glock-esque receiver not being prohib, but the challenge was sourcing a serialized one from the states to register here..

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/Sad_Buy_9866]

FRT is not needed for domestically produced firearm.

Ultimately these are variants of Glock in that extreme definition of variant. You can actually add extra cavities to make variant claim harder. Noteworthy, Glock itself is not a prohib firearm in Canada.

Incase of Sterling Arms R-9 MK1, which was banned as a variant, RCMP's own analysis found it was a blockback version of R18 MK2, itself a variant of prohib AR-180B. Sterling Arms UK actually produces AR-18.

On magwell, one does not need to redo entire design. Just add incompatibility. Take a pinned Glock mag, add an extra protrusion and corrosponding slot in magwell. So the mag can not fit into existing firearms. Making the firearm designed to accept only 5 rounds mags. There are already 3d printed mags. This ... just adds one detail to existing mag. For incompatiability.

IRG had to get a FRT entry before import. A canadian manufacturing would not. Actually, think of it, may be IRG do not want to play cat and mouse with RCMP because they have other business to do.

[u/Relevant_Diver_3228 → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

I like you. You have a very optimistic outlook and great Google fu skills. While I dont know if all of this is correct many details are. Another question I have is: If you have a license to manufacture these and they keep prohibiting your models would they not just revoke the license? Most companies would not risk having their license revoked and if you are planning on starting the company yourself i would think it is a long process to get the license and a lot of money to start up production and when they catch on they could revoke your license and all of that would be a waste of money.

If anything is incorrect or messed up or whatever please correct me i wrote this quickly and it is 2 in the morning so forgive me.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/Relevant_Diver_3228]

Revoking a business license is denying me to do business and to put food on the table of my family. Courts and public in general takes more sympathetic view of that. Not to mention, I can have other firearm related products too that are regulated. I can have other conventional models too. They will have to find a half way decent rational reason to justify their action because revoking a business license will certainly be reviewed in court of law.

Unlike firearm possession, manufacturing is fundamentally an economic activity. It is regulated alright but burden of proof on revoking license is going to be bigger. Not to mention, it will be unpopular because it will involve rights (servicing, providing spares) of my customers, my employees too.

As much as I dislike beaurcracy, I live in this country. RCMP while work to please their masters try hard to work in the bounds of law. And as much as I rebuke our courts, they have time and again pushed authorities when they step outside bounds of law.

I think if they have to stop this, they will have to change law itself. Which is way more involved than OICs.

[u/SirKickBan → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

Not getting an FRT would put you at a lot of risk. You could do it if you wanted to, but I wouldn't.

An FRT is basically your proof that you had a reasonable assumption the firearm you're making is actually non-restricted or restricted. Without that, you're just left hoping that the RCMP never gets their hands on one of your guns and decides that it's actually prohibited, because without an FRT that classification is retroactive. You'd be charged with manufacture and possession of prohibited devices, among other things.

You might win in court, after you spend a lot of money, but I personally wouldn't want to take that fight.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/SirKickBan]

Fortunately, there is a much simpler solution to this. Its called Verifiers who can verify a firearm and its class and issue a letter stating facts about the firearm. And that can be used to get a registration certificate by customers. Most firearms do not go to the RCMP lab. FRT is not law. Its mostly an administrative table that Canadian agencies use.

One can even do both. Send firearm to the lab and side by side launch it before RCMP getting back to you.

I did not say that one should do this as an individual, one may do this as a business. And no, RCMP can not charge a business with a "manufacturing and possession of prohibited devices(sic)" just because at a later day they determined a firearm to be "prohibited". Firearms tech specs and verifier's note is the primary determination of class of a firearm.

If RCMP feels that firearm is actually banned in a previous OIC, they will create a FRT entry by themself without waiting for you.

Actually, they can and will create FRT entry whenver they need administratively, not to mention, having a FRT entry is no shield against RCMP later changing their mind. Sterling Arms R9 faced exactly this scenario. It was originally declared as NR in FRT but later as Prohibited because it was found to be a variant of a prohibited.

[u/SirKickBan → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

A Verifier reduces risk, but not by nearly as much as an FRT does. An FRT is a much more 'ironclad' proof that you could reasonably believe your firearm was non-restricted or restricted. And the way this described business would be operating, very obviously trying to dodge regulations, would make that a lot less likely to hold up as a real defense if you're found to be doing the things you've mentioned in other comments, like constantly submitting new versions of the firearm. A judge will look at that and go "I don't care what your Verifier says, the last six versions of this were prohibited, you clearly knew this was a prohibited device, you're going to jail."

Moreover though, yes, the RCMP can change an FRT entry whenever they want, but the important part is that if there was already an existing FRT entry in place, then for criminal purposes that classification does not become retroactive, meaning that if you manufactured, say.. 50 of these guns in the past year, when you made them they were whatever classification the FRT said they were before, so you don't get charged. If there never was an FRT classification though, you're taking that Verifier's opinion into a court and trying to convince a judge that you didn't just spend the last year manufacturing 50 prohibited devices.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/SirKickBan]

Dodging the law? Law is not some wishy washy touchy feely thing. Law is text, intent interpretation and precedence. There is nothing in the text that bans a PCC. There is nothing in the text that bans number of models.

If Canadian government wants to regulate harder, it needs to make pre-inspection before launching in the market. A point that has been debated several times. The fact it is reactive is the very reason that law does not feels it is needed to inspect each and every firearm before launching.

Also, you are absolutely wrong on treating FRT as anything authoritative. FRT is purely administrative database that has been made public. It is NOT law itself. It is not even supposed to answer any question other than how government agencies process firearm information. It can be changed at the whim of RCMP -- because it was designed to serve them as primary user. This has been seen a lot in the past.

The authoritative part is act, the regulation and court decisions.

[u/Plasma_48 → u/Sad_Buy_9866]

Do you know what that receiver is called? I can’t find it in armalytics’ database

[u/Sad_Buy_9866 → u/Plasma_48]

Full thread on it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/canadaguns/s/rpQrXsdP0u

[u/Plasma_48 → u/Sad_Buy_9866]

Ah, you can definitely import one, there are ffl07s in the states that can print them too. I think it cost me ~$57 USD. The hard part is sourcing a short barrel, the gunsmith doesn’t want to cut a blank shorter than 457mm because it’s possibly a prohib. The RCMP is coming up with a better definition from what I’ve heard though.

[u/escv_69420 → u/Plasma_48]

Just make an ECM barrel yourself. Once you've got the receiver and its a registered restricted in your name, making other parts is totally fine. Also, they can be made to take AR9 barrels so you can just get that imported with the receiver.

[u/Plasma_48 → u/escv_69420]

CC99(1)(a) I believe prevents barrel manufacture. Could be citing the wrong things, but you need to have a manufacturing licence to manufacture barrels afaik. I’ve already got the receiver and a barrel blank that I can get turned to 18.6” for NR. I’m just waiting for the RCMP to clarify when the blank is considered a barrel so I can get the shorter side to be used as a barrel too.

They can take glock barrels, I haven’t seen AR9 barrels though.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/Plasma_48]

FGC9?

Edit : Yup FGC9 it is. The issue with FGC is that it is an "open source" design, custom for 3d printing. And it has issues. Like drop safety etc.

The entry is due to administrative entry.

[u/Ciggaris → u/Sad_Buy_9866]

Yeah you’re right, there’s actually a decent number of 3D printed frames that have entries on the FRT table that weren’t prohibited and so in theory could be imported from the states if they have serial numbers (which unfortunately unless you were ordering a build your own frame kit was damn near impossible). Those days are over now since you can’t import frames anymore due to the handgun freeze but it was possible for a while there and places like reliable gun were importing and selling serialized frame kits.

[u/SpectreBallistics]

Short answer: No, not gonna happen.

Long answer: Not, not gonna happen because it's too risky of an investment in too small of a market. Manufacturing custom 5 round mags that cannot be interchangeable with Glock mags is a huge task. Mags are the hardest part of a gun to make, even when the feed geometry is known. 3d printing is a great technology for prototypes, but for production parts at the scale of a firearm just isn't there yet. You also can't really compare injection molded parts to 3d printed ones. Injection molding requires different design compromises than 3d printing. 3d printed materials are not as strong due to in weaker inter-layer bonding and this has to be accounted for if you're doing a 3d printed production part. Where injection molding you have issues like draft angles and wall thickness to worry about.

As for manufacturing on demand, that's what basically all manufacturers do now with existing technology. B2b orders are placed months in advance. You also need to do large runs of parts to optimize assembly. Building one or two guns at a time is just not as efficient as building 100 because you're going to build sub-assemblies and then do a final assembly typically.

Finally you'd want to get a FRT. If you don't they may just give you one and it might not be what you like. This takes time. Way more time than it should.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/SpectreBallistics]

Thank you! For a detailed answer.

Just want to ask, even with something like PEEK fiber with heat treatment afterwards, 3d printing is too weak? I mean, I heard they make load bearing parts in aerospace using such methods because of small production run needed.

Anyhoo, rest of the issues essentially seal the deal. It cannt happen.

[u/SpectreBallistics → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

3d printed parts are (generally) anisotropic, even after heat treatment. This means they have different tensile strengths in different directions. This is very true with materials that have fibers in them because those fibers to not cross between lawyers well. To make a part by 3d printing it needs to be designed to accommodate the manufacturing process. This is true with any manufacturing process.

It's completely possible to design a firearm to be made with 3d printing. But there are some massive downsides to doing so. The cost of your part will be higher compared to injection molding, even with considering mold costs.

The cost for a printer and other associated tools capable of doing production quality parts is extremely high. So it just doesn't make sense financially when you can invest a similar amount of money on injection molding and get way more parts way quicker.

Another factor is perceived value. Try selling a 3d printed gun... Consumers will often by default consider it to be cheaply made or poor quality simply due to it being 3d printed even if the quality is better than injection molding. There is a stigma against 3d printing because most peoples experience with it is random stuff printed out of PLA on a $150 chinesium printer that wants to burn your house down. There's also some "production" 3d printed parts on the market which are known to break very easily and that also doesn't help.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/SpectreBallistics]

Yup! Customers have this hang-up on material and processes.

When Glock was initially introduced, many folks balked at it being polymer receiver. Many thought it was plastic and like the plastic toys they see in market, it will easily break.

3D printing bad name because most folks have seen cheaper PLA printing only. Nylon, PEEK etc added with additives like GF and heat cycled are pretty tough material. especially if Z-dimension does not recieve impulse directly, where layer adhession can be a problem.

[u/Flashy_Inspector115]

Our market aint big enough for this

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/Flashy_Inspector115]

This kind of setup is suited for small markets only. Additive manufacturing is slow and a bit more expensive. But it is immensely flexible. A business can do on-demand manufacturing. Producing only as many firearms as direct orders received.

Top it all, it can allow a cosmetic customization too. At the time of manufacutring.

[u/escv_69420]

Replace 3d printing with a multi axis CNC mill and you'd be set. The time it takes to print something like you're talking about is pretty long. Milling it would be much better but you'd have to have a higher sales volume to make up for the cost of the machine.

They you'd basically be an other Canadian billet receiver garbage rod manufacturer, but for Glock based PCCs instead of "totally not an AR"s. Could work. Could be not shit. Get an FRT first so you aren't just Crusader 2.0

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/escv_69420]

Well, i was thinking more on the lines of a licensed business renting industrial 3-d printers... to keep the capital cost low. But then reality is people do not like 3-d printed firearms because they have a reputation... of being low quality. There are Nylon-612 + Glass fiber and/or Kevlar filaments that are extremely tough if printed properly and heat treated. Anyhoo, it was a mental exercise only.

[u/escv_69420 → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

Have you seen that new thing of chasing the nozzle with a laser to slightly remelt and like, weld the layers? It was a pretty interesting idea and the guy made a big YouTube video about it testing the layer adhesion and layer axis strength.

I have a passing interest in the kind of higher end 3D printing you're on about, but for motorsport stuff. Ends up being all the same issues as a firearm really. Do it wrong and it ends up shitty and maybe dangerous. 3D print seems like a great idea, but once thought through, milling starts making a comeback. However, the cheap mills are shit and not accurate enough so they you end up with choosing between weak and accurate or usably strong but potentially wonky. That's my suspicion about the various 180 garbage rods, the machining just wasn't thought through and there's SO much more involved in CNC Milling than making a design and robot go BRRRRRR lol.

[u/fyfnw]

Love the spiri and creativity. I feel you should channel that energy into helping get the laws repealed. Or by otherwise frustrating the Liberals and friends via the legal or political process like the CCFR is.