r/canadaguns • u/jscott321 • 27d ago
News / Politics / Activism Citizen charged for using gun to deter thieves in Manitoba.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/winnipeg/article/rural-property-owner-facing-charges-after-firing-gun-at-people-allegedly-stealing-fuel-manitoba-rcmp/This one stings a bit more because this is where I grew up, and I’m just thinking that could’ve been my dad a couple years ago. Or even me when we had guys come onto our yard to steal gas and equipment.
I just feel so sad reading an article like this seeing the premier Manitoba support the charges, as well as the guy from U of Manitoba that they interviewed.
Obviously, there’s a lot of details that we don’t know but man it’s getting frustrated with the amount of theft that’s happening on farms these days.
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u/lanteenboy 27d ago
RCMP said people could take reasonable steps to protect themselves and their property?
Seems pretty reasonable to me. No one died and 3 armed criminals were arrested. The cops wish they were that effective
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u/givemehellll al 27d ago
That’s likely what the crown will come to as-well. Joe Copper doesn’t have complete autonomy to not charge for serious gun crimes (even if it’s in a case like this) and must land on the Crowns desk.
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u/123Bones 27d ago
Yep. But there seems to be a victim or "can do no wrong" attitude in the firearm community that we shouldn't be touched or something. Firearms people do bad things sometimes, they can also do good things, be charged, and have them dropped.
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u/LoveBotMan 26d ago
To your point, I saw a case the other day I remember vaguely what the initial call. I believe it was 2022. Criminals broke into someone’s house. As they are outside of the house and running or driving away the homeowner begins shooting at them.
In no way shape or form is this self defence. This action is all sorts of fucked up charges. The homeowner was charged in this case and rightfully so. I think he was given house arrest.
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26d ago
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u/SirKickBan 27d ago
“Ethically speaking, if you are able to protect yourself and you are not in immediate danger, then you certainly don’t pursue justice on your own,” he said. “There’s a reason we have a legal system, and you know property theft is a serious criminal offence, but it’s not a capital crime.
I'm usually pretty on the side of "You can't kill people to protect property", but my brother in Christ Canada doesn't have any capital crimes. That is an insane thing for an ethics professor in Canada to say.
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u/grathontolarsdatarod 26d ago
The pursuit of justice is a right. Especially when it comes to your own property.
You can arrest people for stealing your property. That provision is in the criminal code for just such a circumstance.
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u/Ilikechainsaws09 26d ago
Besides a few notable exceptions, professors and acadamia, non stem, is an echo chamber of terrible, virtue signaling ideas. What exactly would society lose by axing (not killing) a whole swath of these mindless idiots that have never seemed to live in the real world.
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u/neck-tourniquet NathaLIE Provost is a cancer 27d ago
“Though I understand the frustration with crime, absolutely, I support law enforcement. Let’s not make their job more difficult by making the reaction more complicated.” Kinew said, from behind his security team.
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u/Low-HangingFruit 26d ago
Did he support law enforcement when he was beating his girlfriend?
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u/Ilikechainsaws09 26d ago
I know, every time he opens his yap, its like, you fucking pos, you hit women. How could anyone vote for him in good conscience, especially all those lefty women.
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u/TehSvenn 27d ago
Most ridiculous shit ever. At some point it's hard to feel like it's something else than trying to cause division.
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u/Unfortunate_Sex_Fart al 27d ago
Just like the guy in the GTA, the system just hates people who fight back against criminals.
I hope every crown, judge, and politician has this happen to them one day, without their armed security to help them.
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u/mwmwmwmwmmdw 26d ago
this has been the case since before many people reading this where born. for every 1 story of an owner not facing charges there 3 BS one where the person gets dragged through court over choosing not to be a victim.
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u/pooshlinger 26d ago
This is going to make people think that calling the police will just get them in trouble and may result in less reported crimes and people having to just rely on themselves
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u/outline8668 26d ago
This is the reality of the situation. And if police are called there is no obligation on your part to make a statement. Even Runkle said the police are allowed to lie to you and you are never going to talk yourself out of a charge.
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u/Metalock 27d ago edited 27d ago
I really want to like Wab Kinew (no idea why, I'm an optimist I guess), but my impression/opinion of him is lowering by the day just like the rest of the federal NDP (and BCNDP as a BC resident)
I'd love for one of their sycophants to explain to me how the "party of worker's/property rights" supports charges for a 66-year-old homeowner defending his property against FOUR intruders!
They're all talk.
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u/StairwayHiker 27d ago
No, you can't use lethal force to defend property... End of story.
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u/Barbarian_818 27d ago
I understand the logic. "A human life, even that of a criminal, is worth more than a TV or a skidsteer"
I just don't entirely agree with it. Heavy equipment theft, including farm equipment is a huge problem. For the farmer, that's his friggin' livelihood we're talking about. It can take several weeks, even months for the insurance company to cough up the claim money. And they **will** try to screw him over if they can to avoid paying out. I'm willing to bet tractor insurance doesn't cover the cost of a missed harvest letting the whole crop go to waste. The insurance company will also likely increase his premiums and the premiums of all other farmers in the area that they cover to reflect the increased risk going forward.
It only takes having to make a handful of claims in a short time before insurers won't even look at you.
In this case, from the little I can see, that this is a case of a citizens arrest. You are allowed to use force to effect an arrest, but it is supposed to be the minimum needed. (so like self defense, you're expected to remain cool and restrained when being attacked.)
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u/julienjj 27d ago
there should be a legal defense mechanism if you are charged for such accusations then cleared the government must pay all your legal fees X3
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u/jollygreengiant1655 26d ago
That's the real problem here. Lots of people will say that "oh so and so had the charges dropped, the system worked as intended, no biggie". Except it just cost an innocent person how many tens of thousands of $$$, and potentially their firearms and license, just to prove their innocence? There aren't many people who can afford that kind of legal bill. For most people that would destroy your future.
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u/Comfortable-Sir-7634 26d ago
no one but the criminal and you know they are on your property doing bad things.... Why call the cops? They prove it's bad for the victim every time.
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u/rastamasta45 26d ago
Once again, the victims is the one that must run through a 90 point check system to make sure they don’t go overboard against a criminal who decided to bother them in the middle of the night.
We’re such a fucking broken country 🤦🏽
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26d ago
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u/Ilikechainsaws09 26d ago
Google, David Betz. He is an awesome professor of modern conflict at one of the best military universities in the world. He discusses this and how it would look and the tactics most likely to be in use.
He also thinks its inevitable in the west.
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u/canadaguns-ModTeam 26d ago
In accordance with the subreddit rules, your post/comment has been removed for the following reason:
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Civility, courtesy, and politeness, is expected within this subreddit. A post or comment may be removed if it's considered in violation of Reddit's RULES, Reddiquette, and User Agreement.
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u/Any-Lavishness-2473 26d ago
The government is attempting to show gunowners that possession of them is futile. This is politics, take it to trial.
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u/NicePresentation213 26d ago
"“Ethically speaking, if you are able to protect yourself and you are not in immediate danger, then you certainly don’t pursue justice on your own,” he said. “There’s a reason we have a legal system, and you know property theft is a serious criminal offence, but it’s not a capital crime."
The article makes no implication that anyone in this story actually got shot, but somehow, the entire pool of interviewees, including the primer himself, is speaking like the property owner administered his own capital punishment, yet nobody died? the criminals got apprehended? the 27 year old had his own weapon, and was prevented from using it further? am I going insane? what harm actually occurred aside from the break in?
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u/BritBuc-1 25d ago
Police and government officials said “heyyyyy cmonnnnn! Just hand your stuff over nicely and then write us a five star google review”.
No! Fuck off!
Insurance, the legal system, none of it makes a person whole again. This guy literally apprehended 3 of the 4 suspects…but the horsey policey have to get their numbers up and get the scary firearms man in prison as a priority.
And the guy defending his property, will probably face more serious charges than the people committing multiple crimes.
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u/Flashy_cartographer 23d ago
Charged does not mean convicted, so hopefully it doesn't play out that way and reasonable sense prevails. But if it was that easy we wouldn't be here in the first place
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u/Curious_Joe2020 26d ago edited 26d ago
This is identical to the other article. You cannot use lethal force (aka shooting a firearm) to protect property from theft, simple as that. And in this case it involved fuel outside the house so theft once again. This is not the same scenario as self-defense inside the house and if they were armed (looks like they were not). You also cannot give chase while armed outside the dwelling. The smart move would have been to call police and retreat inside the house. Confronting is always a bad idea unless they are trying to break into your house and even then it just means telling them you called the police. All these articles have one thing in common, someone gave chase outside their house and discharged a firearm while the perps were unarmed.
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u/123Bones 27d ago
I'm not the only person that has the "a charge doesn't mean they're guilty" mindset, right?
Yes, there's a charge, but that charge can be dropped. Or it can go to court and nothing comes of it...
Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.
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u/lazarus870 27d ago
He's going to have to spend thousands of dollars on lawyer fees, and hopefully not go bankrupt in the process. Even being charged (even if it's dropped) can ruin your life.
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u/Alx_xlA 27d ago
Charges don't just happen out of thin air, it means multiple people have agreed that they think it's in the public's interest to spend police and crown prosecutor time on it because they think there's a reasonable likelihood of guilt.
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u/givemehellll al 26d ago
Not really. Many places nowadays don’t have a pre-charge crown to review files, so the police must proceed if grounds exist. Crown will then look at the file once charges are laid.
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u/outline8668 26d ago
It's more like the police throw any charges they can think of and let the crown sort it out later.
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u/StairwayHiker 27d ago
I agree with the charges against the resident.
No, you can't use lethal force and shoot to defend property in Canada when your life is not at risk!
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u/jscott321 27d ago
That mindset is exactly what’s wrong with the world.
And that’s as nice as I can say it and remain within the rules of the sub.
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26d ago
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u/jscott321 26d ago
But… that didn’t happen here.
If you want to bring up a situation where an innocent person was walking up to somebody’s house and got shot, and the homeowner was charged, then do so,l. However, these guys were stealing gas, in stolen vehicles, with other stolen property, they had a weapon, and none of them were killed, so what does the situation you mentioned have to do with anything?
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26d ago
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u/jscott321 26d ago
I don’t know if you’ve ever lived on a farm, but we’ve had disgruntled workers threaten us, once two guys showed up, threatened my mom and I when my dad wasn’t there, and the only thing that deterred them was a Remington 870 in the hands of a young boy (me).
People stealing gas and equipment is becoming a big f**king problem, and thieves being on your yard on a farm feels a lot like having someone in your house.
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u/skelecorn666 26d ago
I think that's why we have to ditch one-size-fits-all laws. The higher the population density, the more laws apply. The lower, the lesser, until you get so a bare substrate that's actually enforceable. Almost like hey! Municipal, provincial, and federal governments could layer it!
But nobody paid attention in civics class, some don't even remember being in that compulsory class, and think the Federal is the most powerful, then provincial, then municipal, when it's completely backwards as far as we individuals are concerned. So people keep trying to top-load government, even those within it, when the Fed is actually the least important in our Confederation.
Basically, if you can't enforce it, it's ridiculous to rule it.
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u/NoGrapefruit1213 27d ago
People you don’t know on your property with firearms stealing your hard earned property sounds like a risk to me after they filled up with gas who’s to say they weren’t headed for the house next.
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u/some_guy2024 27d ago
Who used lethal force? None of the thieves got a trip to the morgue as far as I can tell. I guess the homeowner (and most others in the area) will niw do as wise old Ralph once said 🤷🏼♂️
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27d ago
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u/canadaguns-ModTeam 27d ago
In accordance with the subreddit rules, your post/comment has been removed for the following reason:
[1] Disrespectful/Insulting or Hateful Comments
Civility, courtesy, and politeness, is expected within this subreddit. A post or comment may be removed if it's considered in violation of Reddit's RULES, Reddiquette, and User Agreement.
Using negative generalizations on persons based upon their backgrounds, ethnicity, gender, or appearance is subject to comment removal and a possible ban from the subreddit. Keep comments directed at actions, not at individuals.
Racism, bigotry, intolerance, or otherwise extremist posts/comments/behaviour WILL NOT BE TOLERATED in this subreddit. Users doing so will be permanently banned from the subreddit.
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u/NEUMANN-METALWORKS Neumann Metalworks 27d ago
Great way to deter people from calling the pony police at all...
It seems like there was 4 people involved in the theft, and it mentions 3 of them stayed on scene until RCMP arrived. I'm sure they stayed on-site out of the goodness of their hearts and not because the home owner had them at gunpoint... Meaning the home owner knew the police were coming AKA he/someone in the house called the cops.
Then the police finally show up and the homeowner gets charged lol. I don't know why anyone would call the cops these days...