Introduction from Every Defence LLP

[u/EveryDefence]

Hello r/canadaguns! 

We are Every Defence LLP, a criminal defence firm with a special interest in firearms laws. Our team is composed of long-time PAL holders with a passion for anything and everything firearms-related. 

Like you, we are collectors and enthusiasts who are navigating the complex and ever-changing firearms law regime. We are particularly frustrated by the lack of helpful information on niche topics within the hobby. We felt by providing general information and the opportunity for r/canadaguns community members to ask us general questions, we hope to keep the public informed on current firearms law regulations while also tackling ambiguity and myths in existing laws.

Every month or two, we will pick a hot-topic firearms issue that has been percolating in the r/canadaguns community. In doing so, we aim to provide needed clarity on the current state of the law to that topic.

Importantly, THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, and we cannot answer questions about your specific situation.  You should not construe anything we say as legal advice, and you should speak to a lawyer immediately about any legal predicament you find yourself in. In no way does the general information we provide create a solicitor-client relationship, and it is not meant to serve as legal advice for any legal predicament you may find yourself in.

[u/Dill_Pickle_Tears]

Since we’re on the topic, how does the law apply to handling firearms on private property within public view?

Like a patio in a house or balcony in an apartment complex? I hate cleaning firearms inside and want to do so in a ventilated area to prevent contamination, but it seems it be a legally grey sort of situation.

Also any two cents on the current CCFR et al, v Attorney General of Canada case?

[u/HappyCan7250 → u/Dill_Pickle_Tears]

I had the cops called on me once while a case into my truck after a purchase. For all they know it could've just been an empty case!

Cops showed up at my house 2 weeks after the fact too. It was kind of funny.

[u/pooshlinger → u/Dill_Pickle_Tears]

Cannot be in public view to my knowledge. My brother had cops called on him for a red ryder bb gun in his window sill…

[u/looloopklopm → u/pooshlinger]

Cops called does not mean its illegal.

Very much interested in whether or not this would be a chat or a trip to the pen

[u/pooshlinger → u/looloopklopm]

Yes it is illegal to have “firearms” on display to the public. Bb guns are considered “low velocity firearms” in court.

[u/LeeFrann → u/pooshlinger]

he's right same with paintball guns

[u/airchinapilot → u/pooshlinger]

Find the regulation

[u/looloopklopm → u/pooshlinger]

Alright wrap it up, this guy has all the answers. Who needs the lawyers psssh

[u/Agent_1812 → u/looloopklopm]

he is /r/confidentlyincorrect

[u/AHangryBeaver → u/pooshlinger]

I’m pretty sure as long as the firearm isn’t being discharged or isn’t loaded you can have it in public view. Also pretty sure if it’s got a trigger lock on it you could stroll down Main Street as long as it’s being transported legally

[u/Airplaneondvd → u/AHangryBeaver]

You don’t need to lock guns in transport unless it’s restricted 

[u/Whispersfine → u/AHangryBeaver]

Firearms law might allow you to do that but my friend, make sure the city allows that too

[u/pooshlinger → u/AHangryBeaver]

You absolutely could not lol you must have it in a bag or box. Same goes for in your car it must be out of public view. Did none of you read into our laws after getting licensed?

[u/PhilthyLIVES → u/pooshlinger]

If you read our laws then you'd know a non restrict only needs to be unloaded when transported

[u/airchinapilot → u/PhilthyLIVES]

In support of your comment.

https://rcmp.ca/en/firearms/firearms-safety-training-transport-and-storage/storing-transporting-and-displaying-firearms

Non-restricted firearms Non-restricted firearms must be unloaded during transportation.

That's it.

must be out of public view

The guy above may be referring to the below:

Leaving any class of firearm in an unattended vehicle

Lock non-restricted firearms and locked containers carrying restricted or prohibited firearms in the trunk or in a similar lockable compartment.

If the vehicle does not have a trunk or lockable compartment, put firearms and firearm containers out of sight inside the vehicle and lock the vehicle.

[u/Ok-Raise-5115 → u/pooshlinger]

You’re wrong. If it’s in your car it only has to be concealed on all 6 sides if it’s unattended. I could have all my guns on the back seat without trigger locks rolling through a ride program and would be fully within the law. The main thing I learned from my firearms course was that police don’t know the laws

[u/EveryDefence → u/Dill_Pickle_Tears]

SHORT ANSWER: Cleaning unloaded, non-restricted firearms, on private property but in public view is not strictly “against the law” but DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK.

LONG ANSWER: Let’s imagine a non-restricted firearm that is unloaded with no ammunition nearby. Restricted firearms would require a separate reply because of where conditions permit you to possess them and the definition of a dwelling-house.

Due diligence is the best policy with firearms. A reasonable compromise may be to disassemble the firearm in your home and spray down parts and components outside of the home for the purpose of ventilation. Taking an assembled non-restricted firearm outdoors on your property, disassembling it, and cleaning it there risks inviting a phone call to the police from a neighbour or bystander, followed by police paying you an unwanted visit. Consider both neighbours and law enforcement do not know if your firearm is loaded. Well-intentioned witnesses can be mistaken or otherwise unreliable. Their characterizations may heighten the police response.

Decisions are in the details. Is your neighbour aware you are a firearms owner? Is there a school or children nearby? Does your property face a sidewalk where bystanders might see you holding a firearm? Ask yourself if a community member who is unfamiliar with firearms may see you as being careless in your handling of the firearm, contrary to section 86(1) of the Criminal Code?

Consider that the question for a judge would be whether your handling of the firearm is a “marked departure” from the standard of care of a reasonable person in your circumstances. This is an objective standard, inferred from the accused person’s conduct, and judged by the standard of a reasonable person in similar circumstances (R. v. H.C., 2020 ONCJ 418 at paras 188-189).

Again, the legality of situations like these heavily depends on the facts that, cumulatively, could tip the scales toward criminal liability. The best policy is to CYA. Here are some common-sense suggestions and related fact scenarios courts have previously dealt with:

• Keep cleaning materials near the firearm (R. v. Craft, 2005 YKTC 80 at para 4, where the officer doubted the accused’s explanation that he was cleaning his firearm);
• Keep alcohol or intoxicants away from the firearm;
• Ensure you are not intoxicated while handling firearms;
• Ensure the firearm is unloaded and there is no ammunition nearby;
• Ensure the firearm is not left unattended at any point, even temporarily (R. v. Bickford, 2000 ABPC 60 at paras 19-20);
• Be mindful of whether you are near a school (R. v. Login, 2006 ONCJ 51 at para 271);
• Use a cable lock and/or a chamber flag to provide visual confirmation that the firearm’s chamber is empty (and not loaded) in the event there is a police response;
• Always point the firearm in a safe direction to ensure you don't mistakenly point your firearm at a neighbour or in a bystanders' direction;
• Be proactive of whether your neighbours know that you are cleaning your firearm and that the firearm is unloaded (R. v. H.C., 2020 ONCJ 418 at para 194); and
• Never publicly display your firearm in a busy urban centre.

Consider that a police response can lead to a charge and subsequent conviction. It can also result in your detention, arrest, and/or a search. None are desirable. And do not not forget about collateral consequences like having all your firearms seized and your firearms license suspended or cancelled… but YMMV.

Bickford at para 19: the firearm was 1) left in a residential urban community populated by adults and children (the firearm leaned against a truck parked by a residence) 2) propped up against the outside of a motor vehicle with no trigger lock or any other locking mechanism, with the bolt contained in the firearm, and 3) left unattended for a period of five to fifteen minutes, and while the accused was at least 65 feet away. The accused was ultimately acquitted, though because the charge was careless storage and the judge could not convict on the basis of finding careless handling.

Lamoureux, 2003 ABPC 104 at paras 54-56: "the accused's possession of the firearm on the deck outside of his residence in a major urban centre, the City of Calgary, contributed to what was already a dangerous situation with respect to the alleged break and enter" and "the possession of a firearm pointed in the air outside of one's residence in a major urban centre is a recipe for potential disaster".

[u/Barbarian_818]

Is there any conceivable way to force the Canadian Firearms Program to change it's policy on carry permits?

It's always bothered me so much that the legislation says self defence is a valid reason to carry a pistol°. This was included at the insistence of western provinces and women being able to defend themselves from abusive exes was specifically mentioned in parliamentary debate. But the program and CFOs basically said "nope, not going to do that, like ever". They are so determined to ignore the existing legislation that there is no mention of the possibility on the web site or forms.

It seems like the only way to get a self defence ATC is to have your local police chief write a letter saying they think you deserve one. Since that also is tantamount to an admission they can't protect you, that basically never happens. The only ATC issue I've ever heard of was a Toronto councilman whose ward included the Jane and Finch region.

And under the current Liberal government, even wilderness carries are being eliminated. The head of the program decided to take away the power to issue them from the provincial CFOs.

I ask because the only way to buy a pistol now is the Olympic exemption or holding the (impossible to obtain) self defence ATC. And now there are indications that they want to crack down on the Olympic shooting exemption.

°This also leads to the weird situation where it's ok to carry a gun to defend yourself if the police like you enough to endorse your ATC application. But it's not OK to carry anything else for self defense because judges maintain that carrying the means of self defence is a "purpose dangerous to the public peace"

[u/Altruistic_Split9447]

What do you think will come of the ccfr case?

[u/TheSkrillanator → u/Altruistic_Split9447]

Commenting for notification, this was my question

[u/greasygreenbastard]

Can you comment on the latest case of SNEED et al, v FEED? 

[u/Milkbagistani → u/greasygreenbastard]

I think you mean Chuck's

[u/Lumindan → u/greasygreenbastard]

https://giphy.com/gifs/a5viI92PAF89q

[u/EveryDefence]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments and engagement. Rest assured, we are looking through your responses and will respond over the next couple of days. For more complex issues or open-ended questions (CCFR case), we will reserve them for our monthly posts.

Sneak preview: our first post will deal with how the law identifies suppressors. We will dive into the fine details, from Airsoft replicas to MAGLITE bodies. Spoiler alert: you won’t like the answer.

[u/Sad-Stop-2401]

u/EveryDefence I have two issues of general interest.

1. Firearm Act and Regulations as amended by Handgun freeze included this categorical ban on issue of Registration Certificates on handguns (under S.C. 1995 c. 39 s.12.2) to individuals with one or two very narrow exceptions ie olympic shooting and ATC permits. Problem is, the regulations (SOR/98-201 s.10) demand that upon telling CFP about any material change in my handgun (say caliber change), The associated registration certificate will be revoked. Under pre-freeze era, this was not a problem because CFO can issue new certificate linking handgun to me and allowing me to keep on using it legally. But now, to me it seems this is blocked due to above mentioned sub-clause 12.2 in the act. Does it mean, anyone making a material change in their handgun are essentially going to loose their handgun because they can not get a new certificate? How the law (act and reglation) will work here?
2. Coming to sports shooting, since the handgun ban in 2021, centerfire disciplines are now extremely hard to train in. Because, well, they are not olympic events even though they are recognized events by firearm shooting sports associations at internationa level. Trouble is, Canada bans .32 calibers in pistols and handguns too. One possibility is to acquire a firearm that is purpose built for sports shooting in 22 caliber and field convertible to .32 caliber. However, the list of expemted .32 caliber firearms (factory or field convertible) has not been updated since 90s with models on it have gone out of production. Whats more is that replacement models remain banned because their model name has changed. Is there a way to force CFP to update this list (Regulations Prescribing Exclusions from Certain Definitions of the Criminal Code (International Sporting Competition Handguns))?

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/Sad-Stop-2401]

u/varsil Hey Ian Runkle, do these rabbit holes look worthy of a video or response?

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/[deleted]]

About #1

Conditions on the Registeration Certificate SOR/98-201 s.4(2)

• (2) Subject to section 5, the Registrar shall attach to a registration certificate that is issued in respect of a firearm the condition that when the type, action, calibre or gauge of the firearm is modified, the holder of the certificate shall advise the Registrar of the modification,
  • (a) if the modification is intended to be permanent, within 30 days after the modification; and
  • (b) if the modification is not intended to be permanent but still exists 30 days after it is made, without delay after that period.

So I guess if I change caliber permanently or for more than 30 days that will be a modification I will need to tell the Registrar about. And that should invoke s.10 (AFAIK, IMHO).

[u/Sad-Stop-2401 → u/[deleted]]

Understood. TYVM!

[u/grvl_pit_operator22]

Dang I could have used you guys a few years ago

[u/under_hunter82376]

mmm ok

[u/Upstairs-Zebra8115]

Hmmm... Stating you're attorneys knowledgeable in the use of firearms from a legal perspective, offering to provide advice on situations needing legal clarity and then laying out the standard "don't consider this legal advise" seems to me to be less than helpful.

[u/gnu_gai → u/Upstairs-Zebra8115]

Pretty clearly stating that their social media posts are just community engagement, not legal advise. If you want actual legal advise, you would need to give them money

[u/TheSkrillanator → u/Upstairs-Zebra8115]

Lmao what is this comment even... simply giving information on a topic has never been legal advice.

If you google "what counts as a murder charge," would you call the search results legal advice?

Do you think lawyers - who deal entirely with the specificity of litigation - don't need to shield themselves from misrepresentation and misattribution given their expected expertise in this field?

Redditor ahh post. Just say thanks (or don't) and scroll on man instead of pretending you have your own JD.

[u/Ok-Raise-5115 → u/Upstairs-Zebra8115]

They’re lawyers….. it’s a CYA statement dummy