r/canadaguns • u/ManWithAChainsaw • Aug 17 '26
Misc An example of how to handle the current handgun freeze.
Author's note:
The following is an example of how to handle the current handgun freeze. The opinions expressed in this post are the opinions of an amateur. The information within this post is not backed by a professional and does not claim to be correct; nor is it, in any way, prescriptive of what the reader shall or shall not do.
Read at your own risk and always consult a gunsmith.
This post is very long.
[N# MEANS: NOTE. NOTES ARE AT THE END]
[P# MEANS PICTURE. AS SEEN IN THE PICTURE ORDER]
●What to buy and an introduction.
Hey buddy, are you feeling a little depressed about the handgun freeze?
Yeah, me too.
But wouldn't it be great to have a hundgun anyway? One that doesn't require an authorization to transport, an exemption or even an RPAL/PAL [N1]?
May I introduce you to antique status firearms.
Any handgun made prior to 1898 is an antique [N2].
The handgun freeze does not apply to them.
So are you doomed to use flintlock or cap and ball revolvers? No.
You can use cartridge revolvers that use reloading supplies commonly found today.
Want a semiautomatic pistol? Buy the Mauser c96 (pre 1898) for the low, low price of about 25,000 dollars (estimate). Once you've finished crying, we can go back to those revolvers.
Gunpost is a great source for revolvers and also a terrible place full of decrepit, overpriced paperweights that would convert your hand into lasagna if you were ever crazy enough to fire it.
So, what to look for?
Those 44 Russians sure do look promising.
Oh my, looks like 44 Russian ammunition is a little more scarce than the sellers would have you believe.
Let's move on to my personal favourite, made by the worst people on earth.
That's right dear reader, THE FRENCH.
The service revolver model 1873 Chamelot-Delvigne, also known as the MAS mle 1873 was produced from 1873 to 1887.
Rather conveniently for us, this beautiful black powder revolver can be easily converted from 11mm French to 45ACP smokeless.
The process is extremely easy, so easy that the French resistance converted these to 45ACP in their bicycle shops during WW2.
But we'll be using a gunsmith, or just buy one pre cut like I did.
Now you've got a revolver chambered in 45ACP.
All set?
Hahahahahha.
No.
You see, the MAS mle 1873 was designed for 11mm French, which is about 11,000 PSI.
45ACP is around 23,000 PSI on the low end. Meaning that shooting 45ACP out of these is a solid gamble of getting some more of that hand lasagna from earlier.
It was a risk the French resistance took in WW2.
We're not doing that.
Never buy one of these revolvers if it has ever fired a factory 45ACP round. It is completely unsafe.
●How to reload on a budget and what supplies I used.
You will need the following [P2]:
Lee's classic loader 45ACP [N3]
.454 speer soft lead balls [N4]
Some type of case lube (seriously, use whatever)
Large pistol primers [N5]
A smokeless powder compatible with the .5cc scoop [N6]
45ACP brass [N7]
A rubber mallet
Safety glasses and hearing protection[N8]
Boxcutter knife
1.
Ensure your brass fits in every cylinder of your revolver [P3,4].
2.
If there is a spent primer in your brass, remove it now [P5,6].
3.
Lube brass and place into resizing die until flush [P7,8].
4.
Prime the brass [P9,10].
5.
Use a boxcutter/utility knife to chamfer the inner edge of the brass [P11].
6.
Use a compatible smokeless powder [N6] with the .5cc scoop provided [P12,13].
7.
Drop a .454 ball down into the sizing die and seat with the tool provided in the Lee kit [P14,15].
8.
Flip the sizing die over to create a small crimp[P16][N9].
9.
You are finished, you are ready to bypass the handgun freeze [P17].
●Notes explained.
N1:
You do not need an RPAL or PAL to purchase an antique, however, you will need one to buy gunpowder or primers.
N2:
Certain calibers are not allowed to be antiques.
See:
Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms (SOR/98-464) on the government of Canada website.
N3:
The Lee classic loader is very time consuming compared to an expensive press. But the classic loader is about 65 bucks. A press can be up to and over 650 bucks.
N4:
I recommend soft lead balls because these firearms were not designed for copper. Copper will ruin these guns. I chose a ball because this round only travels around 600-700 fps. Ball = less friction due to less contact. Also minimizes the initial pressure spike.
We use .454, (meant for .455 webley) it's slightly larger than the .452 ACP bullet. This ensures engagement with the rifling.
N5:
Any large pistol primer works.
I do not recommend federal as they are pretty sensitive. These revolvers do not strike lightly. A primer going off during insertion into the brass won't kill you but you'll shit your pants.
N6:
I'm using Vihtavuori N320.
Other compatible smokeless powders will be seen in the comment labeled [C1] below.
N7:
Did you know Starline sells rimmed 45ACP? I didn't. Don't buy rimmed 45ACP. If you do, you'll have to carefully mill it down on your table saw by slowly rotating it against the fence. Not fun.
N8:
A primer going off during priming of the brass can happen. It won't kill you but you could go blind if hit in the eye. The hearing protection is also for the repeating mallet blows.
N9:
In most cases, you don't crimp 45ACP. We're doing a very tiny one because this is a revolver and the ball makes minimal contact with the brass. This crimp is very, very slight.
●Rough idea of the specs using the methods above.
Estimated PSI: 8-9,500 (well below the 11k max).
Estimated FPS: 600-700 (still lethal due to bullet weight, remain cautious).
Estimated max range: 85 feet (common for a revolver of this era).
●Closing remarks.
Look, I get it.
We all wish the freeze would end.
But it's time to look at things pragmaticly.
There's so much groaning over what's been lost, justifiably so.
However, there's still some joy to be found.
Try to find that joy and hold onto it.
Also you don't have to register antique handguns nor is your PAL run when you buy one so the feds can go fuck themselves.
Get out and shoot.
Don't break the law or they'll close this loophole and I will be very disappointed in you.
Carry the antique status paperwork on you and a copy of the law.
Not all cops are experts.
These guns are old, they're never being made a second time.
Treat them with respect.
Treat them in a way which will guarantee their use by future generations.
Thanks for your time.
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u/outline8668 Aug 17 '26
I reload and do shit like this but this is literally when your hobbies have hobbies which also have hobbies of their own.
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u/EvenFlowOverland Aug 17 '26
You had me at round balls
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u/Uncle_Ted_1942 Aug 17 '26
I do wish antiques were just a bit cheaper. I mostly see .32rf revolvers -that look like they’ve seen better centuries- for like $600. Anything else is like 3k+
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u/thatguywhoreddit Aug 17 '26
That tends to happen when you're only allowed to buy guns from when John a macdonald was running for PM.
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
[C1] Powder: fucking powder. For some reason, finding powder with a high volume to weight ratio for light (gallery) loads is a massive chore.
When deciding where to buy supplies from, look for powder first. It's so damn hard to find.
Powders that will work with the .5 cc scoop include:
Hodgdon trail boss
Accurate number 2
Alliant e3
Hodgdon titewad (DO NOT CONFUSE FOR TITEGROUP)
Hodgdon clays
IMR target
IMR red
Alliant red dot
Alliant promo
Vihtavuori N320
Good news, 1lb of powder will last a long time since each bullet is .5cc. Bad news, it's so damn hard to find the powder!
Anyway, all of them are about 8-9,500 PSI.
Don't exceed 11,000 PSI
1lb of n320 is about 100 dollars.
Hazmat fees may apply.
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u/Porkdude99 Aug 17 '26
For the love of god don’t fill your cases volumetrically with smokeless lmfao.
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
I depends on the powder, these are all low density powders. If you used high density powders, it would be very bad.
1
u/HappyCan7250 29d ago
Why not use a digital powder scale??
1
u/ManWithAChainsaw 28d ago
Just preference. I enjoy the simplicity of scooping with the measure and then putting it into the brass. Maybe it's a habit from using black powder.
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u/BigheadReddit Aug 17 '26
I like this. Great effort, and thanks for sharing. While I may not go this route, thankfully I have my restricted’s, I’m glad people are digging for solutions and finding alternatives.
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u/kpyeoman Aug 17 '26
I really wish they would have excluded reproduction cap and ball revolvers from the freeze. Someone can always make the argument about risk and crime, but the odds are extremely remote that someone is going to go through all the work that isn’t a sports shooter. And there is far less of an ability to quickly reload.
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u/Dependent_Account603 Aug 19 '26
Anyone with criminal intent and a PAL can literally go buy a .357 revolving rifle and a hacksaw. The law only prevents the law abiding.
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u/captlevasseur Aug 17 '26 edited Aug 17 '26
If you can make this process work then making .44 Russian should not be difficult at all. The brass is just shortened .44 mag or .44 special anyway. And it takes the same projectiles (usually the lighter ones). And the guns themselves look and handle a lot better then the European ones in my opinion. Case in point, my S&W No 3 DA in .44 Russian. (These are BP loads, but i do make smokeless ones as well.)
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
Is there a classic loader (or a cheap option) for these or did it require a more expensive press?
The S&W 3s are beautiful. I do find them a bit overpriced. Still, I will probably buy one eventually.
Good choice.
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u/Dependent_Account603 Aug 19 '26
If you're going this far down the rabbit hole might as well get the press. Lee even makes handheld press.
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u/captlevasseur 29d ago
I just use a regular press for these with a Lee set of dies specifically for .44 Russian. No difference other than the die for making these or regular .44 Magnum loads really.
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u/Impossible-Green-862 27d ago edited 27d ago
This is centerfire, isn't this making it prohibited? Laws are confusing.
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u/BowFella Aug 17 '26
Nice! I got a couple of em getting touched up at the gunsmith. Honestly I would just stick with pyrodex. Dirty sure, but cheap and safe. You can reach better velocities without worrying about overpressure.
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u/BowFella Aug 17 '26
I should also add that not all handguns made before 1898 classify as antiques. There are certain calibers that are exempted like 45LC, 38LC, 32-40, .22LR (or pretty much any .22) among a few others.
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u/Borealbound 25d ago
I don’t see how .38 LC falls into the category of widely available modern ammunition, it pretty much fell by the wayside after .38 Special was invented.
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u/BowFella 25d ago
There is nothing in the criminal code that specifically states "widely available modern ammunition". The criminal code just specifically states certain cartridges. I agree it's arbitrary and stupid to list cartridges that dont exist anymore like 38LC and 32-40 but that's the way it is. On another note, it's completely legal to convert an antique to shoot 38 special.
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u/Borealbound 25d ago
My understanding is that shaved Webley’s converted to .45ACP are also permitted despite that round being available…not that it would be wise to fire a full power .45 out of a top break Webley.
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u/MG34owner Aug 17 '26
TLDR, just get an antique that you can reload for, or buy cheap ammo that fits the chamber like 32 s&w in 1887 nagant
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u/theborealethos Aug 17 '26
Also, for what it’s worth, I live in America now where these antiques have less of a premium, they are still expensive, but not Canada prices. I have often thought about going into business to somehow get antique revolvers imported for the Canadian market but that would take capital and having someone north of the medicine line to help. There are two antique gun shows here every year, they usually have a few things that would be antique status in Canada.
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u/hunterofsteelhead Aug 17 '26
You could find the people already doing it and work with them
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u/Borealbound 25d ago
Easier said than done, there is also a store in the town that I live in now who specialize in black powder and antique firearms, they sometimes get Canadian antique status pistols in there, I do see things on one of the local trading sites from time to time, like Swedish Nagant revolvers, the odd Webley or old .38 RF suicide specials. It’s just a dream as I would love it if my friends who are still in Canada were kitted up with antique wheel guns that they could take out to crown land.
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u/hunterofsteelhead 25d ago
Yes for sure its easier said then done but im just saying a way. There was a youtuber that had alot of experience importing antique guns i cant find his video right now but if I remember it right he was from alberta or british Columbia sitting on a couch wearing sunglasses talking about all these experiences he had importing firearms and dealing with the rcmp. It was an old video and now theres many more people on youtube discussing it but some of those people have established legal networks in both the us and canada
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
I asked the guy I bought from the history of the revolver.
Around the 70s-80s the French government really clamped down on handguns. Many unconverted 1873s were bought in bulk by Americans.
Few remain but the guy I bought from bought it from his connection in the US.
I'm unsure if it was converted here in Canada or in the US.
I bought it in person to verify that it was milled properly before payment.
So yes, there are people who do what you're proposing.
Edited because I can't spell this morning.
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u/Armedfist Aug 17 '26
You can use cotton to press the powder against the primer. So you have sure ignition
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u/captlevasseur 29d ago
Or use cork or cardboard wads that are pretty easily obtained from online stores. No restriction on supplies like these crossing the border. Track of the Wolf is good spot to find stuff like this.
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u/Thatsoverrated Aug 17 '26
What were the prices like of these antique pistols before the freeze? I never really paid attention to them sadly.
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
I'm hoping someone else chimes in because I also don't know for sure. However, I would guess that those in the sub 1000 dollar range have stayed relatively stable since ones that cheap are usually only suitable as wall art.
For ones over 1,000 dollars pre freeze:
Anything cap and ball probably jumped 500-1000 dollars.
Anything cartridge probably jumped 750-2,000.
The aforementioned pre 1898 c96 Mauser probably jumped 10,000 dollars. Considering it's the only game in town if you don't seek an exemption but still want a semiautomatic pistol.
There were people asking outrageous prices before the freeze, there are more post freeze.
These are all guesses.
Edited for grammar.
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u/EngorgedGorilla Aug 17 '26
I picked up a .38 Special antique Bulldog revolver in the before times, barrel was a little pitted, timing was okay, condition was decent enough for shooting but missing a lot of bluing, cost me $500. I reblued it for a couple bucks worth of borrowed cold blue (destroying any value apparently) and sold it for $1200.
I also had an antique flintlock pistol, but I don't remember how much it cost or how much I sold it for. It was a hunk of junk, so I doubt it was more than a few hundred bucks.
At the time, a .45 ACP Webley was around $1500 IIRC. Out of my price range as a broke student, but very attainable for anyone with a job. But those of us with RPALs could just buy non-antique handguns for $200+ and shoot factory ammo without all the nonsense of reloading light loads.
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u/Elbro_16 Aug 17 '26
Antiques are all right. I enjoy reloading my lebel revolver and webley MKll for my mas 1873.
But semi auto handguns are too much fun
1
u/Imaginary-Leading-49 Aug 17 '26
Meanwhile they got suppressors in the UK… we need a new government so badly!
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u/Jens_Fischer Aug 17 '26
I basically craved owning a Nagant revolver but I figured that reloading nagant's proprietary cartridges is probably more pita than just faffing around with a deactivated model instead :/
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u/Impossible-Green-862 27d ago
How can you use a Mauser C96 when it's centerfire? This turns it into prohibited, no?
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u/Impossible-Green-862 27d ago
Antique firearms: The term "antique firearm" means:
- (i) any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition and that has not been redesigned to discharge such ammunition
- (ii) any firearm that is prescribed to be an antique firearm as listed in the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms
Wouldn't this make the C96 before 1898 you mentioned prohibited as it's centerfire?
Handguns that are not prohibited firearms
Firearms that:
are not prohibited firearms
have a barrel less than 470 mm in length
are capable of discharging centre-fire ammunition in a semi-automatic manner <---
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u/Dramatic_Ebb2315 27d ago
I found that CNS (Canada’s Gun Shop) is quite good for browsing possible options too. Plus it doesn’t require you to sign in to browse compared to Gunpost.
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0
u/Curious_Joe2020 Aug 17 '26
What you should be doing instead is getting an exemption and importing a handgun from the USA. How about a Glock or 1911? Or maybe a Sig Sauer or FN?
For every Glock 45 the RCMP gets Citizens should import their own Glock 44 or some other 22 LR handgun from the USA. You can get an exemption for at least one. The point is to increase the handgun supply in Canada and increase the number of sports shooters. You can even become a community coach and create a club at your local gun range formally or informally.
ATT by the way attaches to the license and is good to go province wide to any gun range or club; it's not something you have to do anything extra for.
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u/DontBeWaves Aug 17 '26
Problem is even if you get an exemption they can’t be fired out on crown land, you have to get a membership and can only shoot at a range.
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u/Old-Selection-1012 Aug 17 '26
This here.
I've had a few antiques and there's nothing like bringing out the pistol to shoot legally.
Wish I never sold my last .44 Russian S&W :(
1
u/EngorgedGorilla Aug 17 '26
They can if they get an exemption for trapping.
Though if you're caught plinking with it, I assume there would be some legal consequences.
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
This is an option. It's a great option for some but not for me. I have many acres of land and enjoy shooting on it. I have never joined a gun club/range and do not intend to.
0
u/QuarterFantastic6134 Aug 17 '26
What about newer-generation revolvers then that French thing? Like a Webley Mk I nitro-proofed able to fire 45ACP on moon clips? I know Nitro Proof mark is supposed to mean they can deal with modern smokeless powder just fine and the higher pressures of those but it's still been 130~ years since they were made.
Basically QUESTION is since there are other revolvers that meet the 1898 cutoff made close to 1898... are there any that can take normal, modern 45ACP pressures (obviously not +P or +P+) reliably without having to spoonfeed them watered-down 45ACP hand loads?
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u/lettelsnek Aug 17 '26
do not fire standard .45 acp out of a webley 😂
even the later MK VI doesn’t like that
and the answer is no, not without alot of work. there is someone who had a few pre-1898 SAA frames re heat treated for .44 special (??) but it’s been a long time since i heard anything about those
0
u/QuarterFantastic6134 Aug 17 '26
Thanks for quickly reply. Then what's the most powerful ancient cartridge - EDIT - still made by manufacturers as opposed to custom hand-loaded - that these ancient revolvers (that are as new as they can be pre-1898) can shoot without second thoughts? 44 Russian? Honestly have no clue.
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
You have a few choices.
I will use rusty wood trading co as an example.
45ACP bullets custom made to use in antiques. 2 dollars per bullet.
44 Russian, 2 dollars per bullet.
8mm lebel, 4 dollars per bullet.
These prices are outrageous.
The total cost of the items listed in my post above (100 brass, 1000 primers, 400 balls, classicloader, powder) was about 500 dollars.
So 400 bullets for 500 dollars and you'll have plenty leftover brass, primers and powder.
Or buy custom rounds from someone else. 400 bullets would've been 800 dollars.
Hence why I reload.
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u/QuarterFantastic6134 Aug 17 '26
Welp having to get weaker manufacturer 45ACP is out since modern manufacturers don’t do that.
Looks like the cheapest for 44 Russian right now are 1.50-1.60 per round pretax at Gobles and Olley’s.
Edit - Thanks for your leads.
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u/VibeAnalyst Aug 17 '26
I’ve handled a few webleys, in original configuration and shaved to .45 ACP. The shaved ones were invariably in worse condition…. Frame hinge wiggle, barrel latch loose, recoil shield wear… likely from people firing off-the-shelf .45 ACP. The unshaved ones are very solidly built and superior to other top-break designs like Smith & Wesson’s.
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u/Porkdude99 Aug 17 '26
Loading for 45 acp isn’t a chore and I actually make custom bullet moulds. I also have files for 3d printed moon clips I made. If you need any info feel free to reach out I load smokeless for lots of antiques
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u/Agonizing-Stroke1812 Aug 17 '26
chatgpt copypasta aside, there is a certain point at which the juice is not worth the squeeze IMO. Salute to those who are genuinely into these ancient firearms and all of the fuckery involved to shoot them, but it's definitely not for me
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u/ManWithAChainsaw Aug 17 '26
Chat gpt?! I wrote this myself, jerk.
-4
u/Agonizing-Stroke1812 Aug 17 '26
Lol my apologies. You just happen to use abnormal unicode symbols and writing mannerisms identical to chatgpt
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