home defense and Verney-Carron Flash-Ball

[u/Careful_Passage969]

i was wondering with the violence increasing (i am in montreal, people break in houses is increasing) why Verney-Carron Flash-Ball is not allowed?

I check the law and I saw the joules etc but can we decrease the PSI of it? I know they're mostly associated with law enforcement in some countries.

just wondering if a company had release a news for an equivalent.

Edit: for **self-defense**

[u/Large_Excitement69]

I think the phrase “home defense” is your answer. Firearms on this country are not for home defense.

[u/epnk420 → u/Large_Excitement69]

Exactly nothing firearm related is allowed for “home defence” say that on your PAL and see if you get a license

[u/PossibleBroccoli → u/epnk420]

You are legally allowed to use firearms to defend your home if you believe your life is imminent danger, multiple people have in the past and were not charged or had the charges dropped after an investigation was conducted.

Edit: 100 different people seem to think I don’t understand this, so I’ll say it, yes, you are not allowed to buy firearms for the specific purpose of self defence.

[u/Barbarian_818 → u/PossibleBroccoli]

There is an important nuance there. If someone breaks into your home and you happen to have access to a firearm and you can convince a judge that lethal force was "reasonable in the circumstances", you may be acquitted.

Possessing any weapon explicitly for the purpose of self defense is illegal unless you are the one person the police like enough to submit a ATC application on your behalf.

owning or possessing anything, even a Byrna rubber ball launcher for the purpose of self defense is a "purpose dangerous to the public peace". That makes whatever it is a "Prohibited Device".

If you state on your PAL application that you are buying a NR shotgun and say you are getting it for hunting, you're good. If you say you want it for home defense, you're gonna get denied.

If you accidentally tell the cops you kept the shotgun in an unsafe condition in order to make it more ready to hand in the event of a break in, then your self defense claim goes right out the window.

If you went downstairs with your shotgun to confront the intruder, your self defense claim becomes very vulnerable in court.

The legal system and top brass in law enforcement hold the view that any life, even a criminals, is worth more than your TV set or any other asset.

[u/CanadAR15 → u/Barbarian_818]

> There is an important nuance there. If someone breaks into your home and you happen to have access to a firearm and you can convince a judge that lethal force was "reasonable in the circumstances", you may be acquitted.

No. The Crown must prove your actions were unreasonable. You shouldn’t be saying anything.

> Possessing any weapon explicitly for the purpose of self defense is illegal unless you are the one person the police like enough to submit a ATC application on your behalf.

Where does it say that in the criminal code?

[u/Barbarian_818 → u/CanadAR15]

When you claim self defense, the burden of proof shifts to you. This is to prevent "self defense" becoming a get out of jail card.

Possession for self defense being a "purpose dangerous to public peace" is established through legal precedent. Judges cite Section 88 when doing so.

In theory, this is to prevent a person with malevolent intent from claiming a weapon is for self defense. In practice, well established in legal precedent, that possession of any weapon by anyone other than a military service member, a member of law enforcement in the course of their duties or a civilian who has been granted the (unobtainable) ATC permit is presumed to be possessing it for a purpose dangerous to the public peace.

Runkle of the Bailey has a few videos in the subject. The most relevant one is in regards to the Byrna device.

The bottom line is that, while you have the right to self defence, the courts have defined that very narrowly. You cannot possess a weapon with the intent of self or home defence. But if you are attacked in public, you can use whatever is to hand to end the attack. I have a heavy, rather stout, cane that I use as a mobility aid. If I am attacked, I can use that to defend myself. And I can use jo techniques from karate to do so. But an able bodied person has no such legal justification for carrying that cane. Similarly, if you live in an area where you might encounter dangerous wild life or hostile feral animals, you can legally carry pepper spray (aka bear spray) to defend yourself. But someone living in downtown Toronto or other major city can't.

If you are attacked within your own home and you happen to have a weapon at hand, you can use it to defend your life, or the lives of other people at risk within the home but not your property. I can grab a baseball bat and go after a thug in my living room if he is between me and my completely disabled son. But I can't go after him if he's carrying my TV set and is headed for the door.

And a catch there is, if you have time to unlock the trigger lock and load the shotgun, then arguably you were not in immediate threat to life. If you kept it loaded and/or unsecured with a trigger lock or locked case, then you are in violation of the safe storage requirements and can face penalties for that.

[u/Eldr_Eikthyrnir → u/Barbarian_818]

A person living in Toronto could get dog spray to protect against stray animals though

[u/Barbarian_818 → u/Eldr_Eikthyrnir]

And as long as a cop agrees. There's nothing keeping him from confiscating it, arresting you and charging you with possession of a prohibited weapon.

Then the Crown can decide whether to press the case or not. If he does, you'll have a chance to convince the judge that stray dogs really is a reasonable fear.

If the judge agrees that confrontations with stray dogs in Toronto is a genuine threat and that possession of dog spray is a reasonable tool to deal with that.

If the judge thinks "we don't have packs of feral dogs roaming the streets of Toronto" then carrying pepper spray is unnecessary and hence "unreasonable" and it becomes a prohibited weapon.

[u/Eldr_Eikthyrnir → u/Barbarian_818]

In that scenario it's more between if they're in a densely populated area such as downtown vs say a park or trail.