r/canadaguns • u/AutoModerator • Jul 16 '23

Weekly Newbies & FAQ Thread - Post your questions here for PAL/RPAL application, timelines, CFSC/CFSRC, references & requirements, or general new to firearms ownership -type questions

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1

u/Eoghanwheeler Jul 19 '23

is .223 a reasonably good calibre to hunt deer in Ontario?

6

u/The_Phaedron Bambi go bye bye. Jul 19 '23

If it's the only thing you already have, and money is extremely tight, and you're picking well-constructed and heavy-for-calibre bullets, and you have the discipline to keep your shots under 100yds? Sure. It's adequate.

If you're buying a rifle intentionally with deer hunting in mind? 223 Rem is a bad choice.

At the muzzle, it starts off barely above the minimum power needed to reliably and humanely take a deer. By 75-100yds, it's dropped below that *KE *floor.

tl;dr it's at the bottom end of adequate. If you haven't bought yet, buy something else.

0

u/bepislav_molotay Jul 19 '23

Above a certain velocity, projectile rounds will frag (thus make significantly larger wound cavities) beyond just their energy in joules. This makes it so that you can ethically hunt deer within 400 yards if you choose the correct loading.

7

u/The_Phaedron Bambi go bye bye. Jul 19 '23

Above a certain velocity, projectile rounds will frag (thus make significantly larger wound cavities) beyond just their energy in joules.

All cup-and-core constructed bullets do this when you're talking about softpoints around the 2500-3500fps range. 223 isn't some ultra-fast round that somehow separates from the normal ballistics of chamberings that are more appropriate for medium-sized game.

It's very much in the same velocity range as more deer-capable rounds like 270 Win, 243 Win, 7mm-08 Rem, and 30-06 Spfld — except it's a smaller case with less powder capacity, and it can only reach the velocities of more-capable rounds by sacrificing bullet weight.

Compared to those others, 223 Rem is a far weaker round with significantly less killing power.

If one chooses the correct loading, 223 Rem is adequate for deer at shorter ranges, and only barely.

This makes it so that you can ethically hunt deer within 400 yards if you choose the correct loading.

I genuinely hope that no newbie reads this and thinks that it's ethical to hunt deer anywhere near 400yds with 223.

No reputable ammo manufacturer or outdoors publication is touting 223 Rem as an ethical option that can reliably make quick, humane kills on deer at that range.

For newbies here who are seeing two people disagree on a forum without a way to sort out what the correct answer is, I'd suggest looking at what reputable sources are saying: That it's adequate at shorter distances, but suffers from some severe limitations in power.

If you're broke, licensed, in need of a full freezer and a 223 Rem is all that one has, it's be justifiable to bring that rifle deer hunting and stay within its limitations.

But those limitations are significant well before getting to MPBR distances. 7.62x39 is a better choice of chambering if one is seeking out a rifle purchase with deer hunting in mind.

3

u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Jul 20 '23

TL;DR
223 Rem/5.56 NATO has poor sectional density for hunting.
https://chuckhawks.com/sd.htm

4

u/The_Phaedron Bambi go bye bye. Jul 20 '23

I wasn't even touching on sectional density. It's important, but I try to keep in mind that this is a Newbies' thread and I aim to keep info digestible.

If I'm getting nerd-sniped, though...

(Newbies, what follows is not stuff that you need to learn: you can choose appropriate deer ammo based on whether there's a deer symbol on the ammo box)

223 Rem is barely adequate for deer hunting, but it is at the bottom end of adequate if you keep shots close.

I love the stuff on Chuckhawks, but that rule of thumb requiring 0.200PSI in sectional density for deer was made with non-premium cup-and-core softpoints in mind. A 60gr bullet is only 0.171PSI in SD, but if you're talking about a partition with 65% weight retention rather than a cup-and-core with 50% retention, I'd consider that 60gr premium bullet to be pretty equivalent in sectional density to your standard nonpremium deer bullet in a 270 or 308

Calculations for SD equivalents of partitioned 60gr 223 Rem to cup-and-core "standard" chamberings:

Chambering Equivalent grain weight Calculation
243 Win 92gr (60/(7000*0.224²)*(65/50)*(7000*0.243²)
6.5 Crd 108gr (60/(7000*0.224²)*(65/50)*(7000*0.264²)
270 Win 119gr (60/(7000*0.224²)*(65/50)*(7000*0.277²)
308 Win 147gr (60/(7000*0.224²)*(65/50)*(7000*0.308²)
338 LM 178gr (60/(7000*0.224²)*(65/50)*(7000*0.338²)
375 H&H 219gr (60/(7000*0.224²)*(65/50)*(7000*0.375²)
45-70 Govt 326gr (60/(7000*0.224²)*(65/50)*(7000*0.458²)

Put another way: A 60gr partitioned .224 bullet is going to behave terminally pretty similarly to a .224 cup-and-core bullet that's 78gr.

This is equivalent in SD to a 120gr 270 Win, a 150gr 308 Win, or a 325gr 45-70.

But with way less kinetic energy to reliably drive that sectional density through a deer.

Contrary to what the other user was implying, 223 doesn't go at some extremely-high velocity that gives it totally different terminal ballistics. It's got a speed about equivalent to a 270 Win and a piss-poor ballistic coefficient.

Realistically, with a 24" barrel, a 223 Rem with adequate SD/construction will cap out at 80-110yds for most factory rounds, and about 180yds with the hottest handloads I can find listed (75gr bonded Scirocco II in front of Accur 2520 powder)

Unless a hunter is a competent handloader or has a hunting spot where the shot opportunities are going to be relatively close, I just wouldn't recommend 223 Rem as a deer chambering.

3

u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Jul 20 '23

Upvoted once for the xkcd and once for the full explanation.

I just don't enjoy typing long explanations on my phone, therefore I stick to URLs where someone more knowledgeable has explained fully. Therefore Chuck Hawks.

OK, one final upvote.

3

u/The_Phaedron Bambi go bye bye. Jul 20 '23

The dishwasher needed unloading and I very much didn't want to.

2

u/Beretta_errata removeddit pro Jul 21 '23

LOL, one of my simpler and less objectionable tasks.